Breaking the Silence on a Personal Story of Childhood Abuse

Amy Stone [00:00:15]:
Okay, so. All right. I wasn’t sure. Okay, Very good. Jane Epstein, welcome to the Art of Imperfect Adulting. Are you ready for a chat?

Jane Epstein [00:00:23]:
I am. Thank you so much for having me.

Amy Stone [00:00:25]:
Yay. All right, we are going to talk about some of the changes and choices and decisions that you’ve made in your life today. But before we jump into that stuff, share with the audience what part of the world you call home.

Jane Epstein [00:00:38]:
I am living in Northern California. I’ve been here for 14 years.

Amy Stone [00:00:42]:
Very, very nice. All right, another question about you and the kind of things you do about your family, specifically because it comes up in the story you tell later. How many siblings did you have growing up?

Jane Epstein [00:00:54]:
I had two siblings, two brothers, two.

Amy Stone [00:00:57]:
Older brothers, two older brothers. All right, Very, very cool. All right, so I’m going to very quickly prep the audience a teeny tiny bit. We’re going to talk about some things that might be considered intense, one of which is something called sibling sexual abuse, which I think goes by ssa. And most of the people listening to this are hearing about this topic and you for the first time. So. But this is actually not a huge reveal or an expose. That’s not my jam. You have a book and a TED Talk. You talk about this stuff all of the time. Based on what I’ve done in the research and the information you gave me, I want to check that I understand the timeline. Can we. Can we go through that?

Jane Epstein [00:01:35]:
Absolutely.

Amy Stone [00:01:36]:
All right, very good. So at age 20, you were in the entertainment industry as a stripper. Then you were married, then you were widowed, later remarried, had kids and in couples counseling, which is a good thing for every single couple. That turned into trauma recovery. And eventually that became going public with your story and becoming an advocate. Did I get that sequence right? You absolutely did, yes, because you gave it to me. You gave it to me, and I was doing the research and I thought, okay, let’s just put it all out there and go through it. So before we go too far, because this is your expertise, not mine, I want to give you a second to explain more about what sibling sexual abuse is so that we’re all on the same page.

Jane Epstein [00:02:17]:
Yes, I talk about sibling sexual abuse and trauma, and only we use the word trauma because each survivor experiences either abuse or trauma. It’s however the survivor experiences it. Sibling sexual abuse is a thing. Yes, kids are curious, but there is a line experts and researchers are still trying to determine. Where is that Line. I always say that line is up to the victim, survivor. Where was that line crossed? What did they experience? It can be. When I talk about sibling sexual abuse, I’m including cousins, older adolescents, child on child. However, my nonprofit, we focus on siblings only. Children living under the same household.

Amy Stone [00:03:03]:
Children living under the same household. So when we say siblings, I’ll just ask a follow up question. We would include people that are in an extended family, like kids that are living together, like so half siblings, step siblings. That would all fall probably under the same kind of umbrella. Yeah. Because the words we use to describe our family can get complicated in these modern times. They sure can. All right, thank you for talking about that. Because I have paid attention to the things you’ve done, you’ve shared, and I know that this is something that deserves more attention. It’s not spoken about as much as it should be. So because you talk about your story openly and publicly, one of the things that I want to talk about is one of the early decisions you made when you were 20 years old. And before I ask this question, I just want to tell the audience and you just so that everybody knows, I don’t make any value or moral judgments about people who are in the entertainment industry. Any part of it or any job that anybody has at any point. Right. Including, you know, a wide variety of things. But when you were 20, you went into the entertainment industry into. And you were a stripper. Do you remember some things that were going on at that time in your life when you were 19 and 20? And what are the things that. What are the things that led into making that decision for yourself?

Jane Epstein [00:04:21]:
Right. As a survivor of sibling sexual abuse and trauma, I was exposed to sexual feelings very early on, and I became very promiscuous, transactional. I desired. I needed male attention to feel okay about myself. And I was just drawn to the stripper stage. It just threw me in. I just needed to get on that stripper stage.

Amy Stone [00:04:44]:
Okay, that is very. So. That is very interesting. So when you were 20, you had finished high school. Was this like your first job or had you had other jobs?

Jane Epstein [00:04:52]:
I had had other jobs. And I barely graduated from high school because I was drinking, I was doing drugs, and I had actually started going to business college. But the, the lure of male attention was just too strong.

Amy Stone [00:05:05]:
Okay. And did you think back to. Well, actually, I’ll come to that later. So I’m going to leap. No, actually, I’ll do thinking back to that time when you were 20, because now you’ve got a lot of expertise And a lot of recovery and knowledge and things. But when you were 20, before you had all the therapy and all those things, were you aware and thinking about the events of your childhood and how they might be impacting your decisions or not?

Jane Epstein [00:05:36]:
I was nuts. I really had put it in the back. It was in the back of my brain. I didn’t forget everything. There’s blips. But in my brain. I had put it in the back of my brain that. No, that was just two kids being curious. I’m not messed up over that. I’m just a tough. I’m a tough girl. I’m a tough party girl. I hadn’t put the two together now.

Amy Stone [00:05:59]:
So when you were making the decision of going into entertainment, would you have been able to say then that you knew you were attracted to the male gaze and male attention? Attention? Or was it just, I like this, and it seems like a great way to make money?

Jane Epstein [00:06:12]:
I think it was both. It was definitely a great way to make. Make a good income and cash income at the time and. But I just had this strong desire to prove myself, to prove that I was pretty, to have the male attention. I just. I just can’t explain, but it just felt like. This might sound kind of crazy to some of your listeners, but it felt like it was meant to be. Well, that actually did serve me well.

Amy Stone [00:06:38]:
And that’s actually what I wanted. That’s the part of the story that I wondered if it was there, and I wanted to give it a chance to come up. Because sometimes when we look at other people’s decisions that we don’t understand or we maybe don’t agree with, or they seem like they’re not on the path to success. Right. We think that we don’t. We don’t. We forget to. That probably the piece of person made that decision because it was the best decision and it served them well at the time. Even though, you know, with more knowledge or a different experience, different set of facts.

Jane Epstein [00:07:16]:
Right, right. And it’s actually a part of my life that I look back on with. There was a lot of growth. And the person that I went stripping with, she’s called Stephanie in the book. We are still connected. And we both kind of look back at that time quite fondly. We grew a lot during that period of time. We really did. So I do think it was meant to be. I think it was part of my story. It was meant to be written.

Amy Stone [00:07:39]:
No, absolutely. Yeah. No, and it’s. Yeah, I hear it. Okay. So, you know, leap. Leapfrog a little Bit forward in the story you share in your TED Talk that the abuse came up in couples counseling with your second husband. And I was curious because there’s some stuff in between then whether or not you had done therapy and stuff like that. If you were talking about it with your first husband and before this or the whole time, if maybe you were following the age old method of survival by completely ignoring the elephant in the room.

Jane Epstein [00:08:11]:
I was completely ignoring the elephant in the room. I had not discussed it with my previous husband. I just kept putting it back in the corner, putting it back in the box, saying that’s not my problem. It’s gotta be something else that’s making me unhappy. It’s not that.

Amy Stone [00:08:25]:
Oh, that’s so that’s. I think that’s very interesting. I think that’s very interesting. So you’ve, your first marriage, how long was your first marriage?

Jane Epstein [00:08:33]:
We were together about 12 years. We were married seven years before he passed.

Amy Stone [00:08:37]:
And then, then you were a widow at about 35 ish.

Jane Epstein [00:08:42]:
30, 34. 35. Yes.

Amy Stone [00:08:44]:
That’s a big deal also.

Jane Epstein [00:08:46]:
It is a big deal, yes. Again, it was part of my story and a part of my story that I would not rewrite. It was actually a very beautiful gift.

Amy Stone [00:08:57]:
What makes you say, describe it as a gift?

Jane Epstein [00:09:00]:
Well, he did rescue me from the stripper stage. He did. And he taught me how to dress, he taught me how to socialize. And when he was, when he was sick, I just, I had to surrender and I had to. I had no control. And when he passed, the best way I can describe it is I was. I had been living in denial and disassociation for so long that I was numb when he passed. I had no choice but to feel the pain. And so I felt alive for the first time in my life and I felt joy. It’s. It. I don’t know if you’ve talked with anyone about grief, but grief can. There is joy inside of grief. And I grew so much and I appreciated the small things. Yeah. So. And actually being able to take care of someone that you love so deeply and being able to experience that process with them and I was there when he passed. It just, it was actually really very beautiful. Very painful, but very beautiful.

Amy Stone [00:09:58]:
Okay, I love that you have reframed that as in that way. That is, that is amazing. I mean, grief is complicated. Grief is complicated. So. But even still you’re going through grief. Grief is a time bereavement and grief like that is a time where often people do find themselves to self help and Therapy and they. The support. But even through this, you are still. You’re just dealing with the grief. You’re ignoring everything else. It has not completed the cycle. Okay, how long between. And then. And then you decided. This is another decision. You decided to get married again. How did. So was that something that was. You thought you would do or surprised you or just how did that come about?

Jane Epstein [00:10:41]:
You know, I actually started seeing a therapist prior to my husband’s death, thinking I could outrun grief. It didn’t work, by the way. And she. I told.

Amy Stone [00:10:49]:
It was a good plan.

Jane Epstein [00:10:51]:
It was a good plan. I had. I had a plan.

Amy Stone [00:10:53]:
I did that with couples counseling. I was like, if we go now, before we get married, then what we will do is we will never have any problems while we were married. That was also. It didn’t work, but it was a decent plan.

Jane Epstein [00:11:04]:
It’s a good plan. So I started seeing her and I. I had this because I knew he was terminal and I felt so much guilt about. Well, I’m kind of looking forward to a new start. I get to. I’m at 34 years old and I get to start over. I get to get remarried. That’s kind of. It’s kind of cool. And she explained to me that, you know, you love being married, and by getting remarried, you’re kind of honoring marriage. You liked being married. It’s okay to want to get married again. So I did want to get married again. I made that decision. And I had a decision in my mind that I would prefer to be a mom. I didn’t really want to be a stepmom, but I also knew that my options may be what they may be. And yeah, I made a decision that I wanted to get married and have children.

Amy Stone [00:11:48]:
Very nice. So that is very interesting that it was on purpose. You had the conscious decision to. You were honoring your love of the relationship and you wanted to find somebody that was willing to have kids for the first time with you.

Jane Epstein [00:12:03]:
That was my hope. Yes.

Amy Stone [00:12:04]:
That was your. Did find it.

Jane Epstein [00:12:06]:
I did find it. I did find it. Yes.

Amy Stone [00:12:09]:
All right. So then being a mom often or. And actually a stepmom, I went through this with. I’m a stepmom and a mom. And so it was. But seeing kids and seeing them go through milestones has the often very surprising impact of reminding us our own children childhood. So, yeah. So where. When did. How old were your kids? When this. When this started to pop up into your memory, that things had.

Jane Epstein [00:12:35]:
Well, it was kind of a culmination of things. First of all, I. I did have unresolved grief because I did. I did go. I went into my second marriage relatively quickly, and so I had unresolved grief, and that was kind of creeping up. And then I had two children back to back. They’re a year and a week apart, and who knows what hormones were playing. I was angry and I was. I was angry and I was depressed. I was just kind of raging. And my. My now marriage at the time, it wasn’t perfect. It’s still not perfect. It’s very good. It’s still not perfect because we are human. But I was raging and I just kept pushing it down and pushing it down. And my children were about 2 and 3, and something happened within my marriage that brought back a memory to the surface that refused to go back down.

Amy Stone [00:13:18]:
So that is really interesting now when that happened, because we don’t. I mean, we. There’s a huge. We don’t have. We have tons of memories from childhood that we don’t focus on all of the time. And the other thing is that memories are tricky. Right. Like, so, you know, memories are tricky. And so when something comes up, when you’re thinking back to, you know, your fifth birthday party or Christmas when you’re seven instead, who knows how reliable it is, what we’re remembering? But when this happened, like, how did it. How did it feel? Did you feel, like, certain that this had happened, or were you unsure what you were remembering? Like, how did. Like, how was the experience? Because you. You were tired. Two kids under. Two kids under three years old, you were exhausted.

Jane Epstein [00:14:00]:
Yes.

Amy Stone [00:14:00]:
Yeah. And hormonal and trying to get, you know, like, trying to figure. Yes, all of those things. But how do you feel?

Jane Epstein [00:14:08]:
Because I had had this nagging memory in my head or for my whole lifetime, it never fully went away. And my older sibling had apologized to me when I was 21, I knew it had happened. I knew it was a real memory, and it was also the memory that had caused me the most shame. So I knew. I knew it was the real thing. But in the past, I’d been able to push things down, but this time it was not going down.

Amy Stone [00:14:33]:
So one of the things that I think, and I don’t this. I’m sure this is in your book, and we’ll tell people how to get your book. But I’m curious about the relationship between you and your siblings when you were an adult and building your own life and you had these little fragments of the memories that were. You were either ignoring or they were surfacing. Were you still, like, in Regular contact with your parents and your siblings and, you know, family barbecues and holidays.

Jane Epstein [00:14:57]:
Yes, I was. I was in regular contact, and it didn’t rear its full ugly head until the depression hit me so deeply, and I was very, very angry, and I started shutting everybody out. My father passed before I started really processing the memories, so I just tried shutting everybody out, but it was. It was there, and it kind of culminated almost serendipitously, because when the memories resurface and they wouldn’t go away and I started becoming angry, we actually moved across the country, my husband and I, and so it created that distance.

Amy Stone [00:15:33]:
Yeah.

Jane Epstein [00:15:33]:
So I’ve probably only seen my. The sibling that sexually abused me. I’ve only seen them once since the memories really came back at full force. So that’s actually been very convenient for me.

Amy Stone [00:15:44]:
Yeah, no, definitely. When we talk about boundaries, that’s definitely one that comes in handy, like, actually putting space between people. If there’s, like, a challenge, you know, it’s not always possible, but I remember one time getting advice from somebody about how to, like, stop a. Stop a fight with my stepdaughter. Right. And he was like, well, walk away. Like, just, you know, you don’t have to engage. And I was like, this is an option. What are you talking about? This is an option. So, like, he’s like, walk into the other room. And then that only partially works because they can follow you, but, yes, they can. Across the country. That’s a bigger geographic boundary, and it gives you some ability to create actual space and distance for yourself.

Jane Epstein [00:16:26]:
Yes.

Amy Stone [00:16:27]:
So how much time has passed since you began to process this and entered into therapy and to now to today?

Jane Epstein [00:16:37]:
Wow. I started processing it when I was about 45. I’m 56 now, and I started really working hard on it in 2017. That’s when I started writing it down and getting it out of my system.

Amy Stone [00:16:52]:
Writing it down. Working with a therapist and going through.

Jane Epstein [00:16:56]:
Yeah, because we’d been in marriage counseling probably about five years before I finally divulged this secret to my husband, which.

Amy Stone [00:17:04]:
I got to say, that’s like a bombshell. Like, I am trying to imagine this conversation in the therapist’s office, and it’s like you’re fighting about the. Who’s squeezing the toothpaste in the middle of the tube, and then you’re like, hello, bombshell. The reason I’m mad is not actually about the toothpaste, but here.

Jane Epstein [00:17:21]:
Yes. Yes. I’ve definitely dropped several bombshells on my husband, for sure, because he actually helped me proofread my book, and he’s reading, and he said, you never told me this. You never told me this. I’m like, tell you anything. So, yeah, that it honestly would happen with the therapy. How that came about was we had been in therapy for about five years, and I was still unhappy, and no one could figure out why I was unhappy. So I actually had to make the decision to go dig inside of myself. And I decided, fine, I’m going to turn over every single hurt and I’m going to write it down. I’m going to figure out what is going on with me. And it was at that point that I. It was really revealed to me that, okay, maybe this had a bigger impact on my life than I realized. And that’s when I told the therapist one on one about it, and he said, you need to tell your husband. And I said, I don’t want to tell my husband. And he said, no, you need to tell him. So that’s how that.

Amy Stone [00:18:07]:
Oh. So it was not in the scene that I had made for. In my mind, it was like the two of you guys on the couch, like, going through counsel counseling. And it was like a momentary, well, there is this other thing that’s bothering me, but it was not.

Jane Epstein [00:18:20]:
It kind of was. It was that I had that moment on my. On my own. I had that thing thinking, well, maybe. Maybe it’s this. And I started writing it down and thinking, well, maybe it’s this. So I did make an appointment with the counselor, and I said, you know, there is one other thing. And I remember approaching him thinking, this can’t. This can’t be that big of a deal. Because I felt like I was complicit in the abuse. I felt like I. I asked for it on some level, and I thought it was my brother. It wasn’t a neighbor down the street. It can’t be that big a deal. And he. And he looked at me and he said, no, this. This is a big deal. And I said, yeah, but, you know, I was complicit. And he said, no, that’s. That’s a feeling that you had. You couldn’t. You couldn’t consent at age 6. So it was kind of an aha moment for everyone. And, yeah, it was kind of a big bombshell for my husband.

Amy Stone [00:19:07]:
Well, and you. I think. I mean, you were actually. There’s a. There’s a moment, okay, so there’s a choice. There. There’s several choices you made. One is to be honest with yourself and to let these things bubble up in your Journals. And the next is to tell somebody else, which actually is an enormous point of vulnerability. And. And I don’t know whether or not you had tried to tell people about this when you were a kid or not, but it is a very big deal to tell somebody else that you. That you have this. That’s happened. And there’s a pretty big piece of luck here that you. It sounds like you were talking to a therapist who had a very strong skill set to be able to meet you, where you were, and walk you through that. Um, because this is. You know, this is a specialty. A specialty kind of thing. Um, and so that’s. That’s pretty lucky.

Jane Epstein [00:19:54]:
Yes, I agree. Because I have heard from other survivors, and therapists will tell them, hey, you know, kids are curious. This happens all the time. So, fortunately, I wasn’t. I had the right therapist for that point in my life.

Amy Stone [00:20:06]:
Yeah, no, it’s very innocuous things. Like, they’ll ask you to retell episodes or they’ll say, are you sure that that’s really. Are you sure? Right? Are you sure? And people. You know, people think that that’s a very supportive thing. But when you’ve got somebody who’s really trying to face something hard, that can be the nail in the coffin to send it back into, like, I’ll never talk about it again.

Jane Epstein [00:20:27]:
Right.

Amy Stone [00:20:27]:
Yeah. So then you were dealing with. You were very young when these memories were formed. There’s a sibling relationship. He’s older than you, which is a power. A power relationship. They’re both older than you. You’re the youngest person in the family. So you’re the bottom of the control dynamic in this family. And you do this how. When did you talk to. I mean, you’ve talked to your sibling. He had apparently talked to you before you were ready to face it. That has to have been. How was that?

Jane Epstein [00:20:57]:
Wow. Because I was about 21, and I went to go visit him, and he and his wife had just had a child, and she went to go take care of the baby. And he said to me, I’m sorry for what I did to you when you were little. And I had this response of, what? What did you do to me when you were little? And then I remembered, and I said. My response was, it’s okay. I participated. That’s what I said. That’s all I was capable of at the time. However, knowing that, he apologized to me. I think I had that in my back pocket for the next 25 years until I was able to process it, just knowing, okay, he’s he’s admitted what he did. He’s not just living his best life thinking nothing happened. So I had that advantage that I don’t. I don’t take that lightly. Not many people get apologies.

Amy Stone [00:21:43]:
I. Yeah, no, but then he. But he did. He did not come back and say, well, no, I didn’t give you a choice as to whether or not to participate. So you were carrying that as that was set in stone, like, yes, we agree that we were both there. That’s. Yeah. No, I’m trying to think if my brother came to me and was like, I’m sorry for what I did. The long list of sibling things, like, you know, you made me eat your Brussels sprouts. You know, like, you know, all of the twerpy things we do to our siblings, you know, that he would have the. That you guys would know. That you guys would know intuitively what it was. Do you think when you look back on the family dynamics now as an adult and having worked through it, can you see how this may have impacted how you guys were functioning as a family from 6 to 20, or was it not?

Jane Epstein [00:22:33]:
I think I want to make sure I understand your question. I’m going to try and answer it this way. So many people think that sibling sexual abuse and trauma happens only in dysfunctional families. First of all, I don’t know any family that’s not dysfunctional.

Amy Stone [00:22:46]:
Right. It is a funny word. Right?

Jane Epstein [00:22:48]:
There are. There are certain things that can happen within a family that makes sibling sexual abuse and trauma more likely. And my family was one of those. And looking back, I can see how that happened. My father was very adamant that he didn’t want a third child. Then I came along and I’m a girl. And he wasn’t sure what to do with a girl. He was a school psychologist. He was basically rescuing all the other children and not focusing on what was happening in his own home. He was very controlling, and my mother was unhappy. They. They were not functioning as a functional family. It wasn’t a functional marriage. There was distance, and I was not daddy’s little girl. So when my sibling, who is very logical child, had questions and was curious, I know these things because I’ve actually asked him, I said, why? Why did you do this? And thinking that he would say, well, I was sexually abused. I thought that would be his answer. But his answer was, I had questions and I was curious. And I saw you getting undressed and I decided to get you alone. And then his body responded and he decided he wanted more. And then there’s me, who’s wanting attention, who’s wanting to be daddy’s little girl. And that made me more susceptible to the abuse. So, yeah, we were a dysfunctional family. I’m textbook for this type of abuse.

Amy Stone [00:24:11]:
Okay, so. But did you. Would you say that you had a close relationship with your siblings? That’s. I mean, that’s. That sounds like a judgment, but would you say that you had a strong relationship with your siblings growing up? Or did you. Were you distant?

Jane Epstein [00:24:25]:
Let me explain it to you this way. And this has kind of been told to me. I’m not sure that I recall it. I was the annoying little sister who came years later. There is.

Amy Stone [00:24:33]:
Oh, there’s a big hs. Okay.

Jane Epstein [00:24:35]:
Yeah, there’s six years for my oldest sibling and four years from my. My middle sibling. First of all, I want to go on record and say that my middle sibling has nothing to do with any of this, but their. Their view of me was, you know, a spoiled little girl, so I wanted to be loved and accepted by them. But I. I think, you know, as I was a typical annoying sister.

Amy Stone [00:24:56]:
Right. And, well, the stereotype of that is that the youngest kid is the loudest. Right. Because they’re fighting to be heard and that kind of thing. And so there’s a piece of that that, you know, sometimes people can turn into, you know, dynamics. But, yeah, so that’s. I was. I’m just feeling it out because I do think it’s interesting to think about because what we grow up with, right, is normal to a certain degree. Like, it doesn’t stand out if it doesn’t stand out as abnormal until you have something to compare it to. So, like, if you grow up in a city, you just know that that’s the only thing you know. If your family is vegetarian, you have no idea that there’s anybody out there that doesn’t have a life like that until something happens that shows you. And so that’s. I was just curious about that. So your dad passed away before a lot of this happened. So did you ever talk to your parents about this, or was this something that you mostly came public with after they were not there?

Jane Epstein [00:25:59]:
I did share with my mom at some point, I want to say. I was about 24, and the only words I had were, my sibling messed with me, and she understood what I was saying and she cried and she said, where was I? How did this happen? I tried to do all the right things. And then she had to go on her own healing journey, feeling guilty for not knowing. So she won again. I’M very fortunate. She believed me. She acknowledged it, right? Yeah. But then, then, you know, that was when I was 24 and again then I kind of put it back in the box. And then when I started wanting to go public or needing to go public, then she started giving me pushback and telling me that I needed to forgive. And what about him and his family? And we had to go through another back and forth and process there.

Amy Stone [00:26:48]:
Well, I would, I’m going to ask you about going public now and we’re going to talk about that because you, you had, you could have leaned into your own personal recovery and in your family and done all of these things and not gone public. And it definitely is. You know, in the self help world, many people who are helpers do build from their own original story, but it is, it is a play. If you want to get your family’s attention, tell them you’re writing a book about your family. They will, they’re going to stand up and pay attention. And so like talk, talk me through like, you know, where, how, like, so it took couple years and what was the first little niggle that was like, I don’t, I want to, I want to bring this out. I’m going to move towards advocacy.

Jane Epstein [00:27:36]:
Sure. I had started writing my story down because there was something inside of me or someone that was going to die inside if I didn’t get it out. So I knew that I had to be heard on some level. So I started writing it down on the page and then I started googling sibling sexual abuse and trauma and I couldn’t find anything. Google was literally almost silent. That’s not the case today, thank goodness. But you know, what was that seven years ago, Eight years ago I started writing. It took me seven years to write the book. I started Googling and there was nothing out there. And I thought, I am not the only one. I know I’m not the only one. And so at that point I actually reached out to my sibling and I said, I have to raise awareness to this. This is something that needs to be talked about. In all honesty, I kind of started talking about grief. I can talk about grief because that’s my thing. I understand grief well. And then I thought, I can talk about child sexual abuse just in general. I can do that. But then I kept getting the nudge that said, no, you need to go deeper, you need to talk about sibling. And I thought, oh hell no, I am not going to talk about that. That is just too much shame now today it just rolls off my tongue. So Easily. And I forget that the society in general is like. But for me, it’s something that I’m able to talk about comfortably. So I just had this desire, this drive inside of me that knew I had to talk about it. And I just kept getting the tap on the shoulder. And anytime I wanted to quit, another survivor would reach out to me or another parent would reach out to me. And even those who had caused the abuse started reaching out to me. So I knew I needed to keep going and keep writing the book. And I didn’t know for sure if the book would ever be published. I just knew I needed to write it down.

Amy Stone [00:29:01]:
Seven years. Writing a book is a very slow process. It takes, it seems like it’s just, it’s one of those things that it doesn’t, It’s. Even when you’re in it and you’re going through it, it doesn’t actually seem to make sense why it moves so slowly. I mean, publishing the. Is instant almost, you know, we.

Jane Epstein [00:29:17]:
Yes.

Amy Stone [00:29:17]:
I mean, and it still, it takes for ever. So you said. So your husband read it and that was probably a big moment, handing him a manuscript and saying, here you go. How did that feel?

Jane Epstein [00:29:36]:
Yes, because sometimes I’d have to hand him a chapter and I’d say, just this is a little heads up. This is a tougher chapter to read. And it was hard for him because he wanted to ask me questions. And I would say, no, I can write it, but I can’t talk about it yet. I can still write it, but I can’t talk about it. And he’d have all these unresolved questions. Now over the course of seven years, all his questions have been answered. And I can actually talk about things more now. But he’s actually my mother reading the book and my husband reading the book. They were, they were the two scariest people to have, have that book in hand.

Amy Stone [00:30:05]:
Yeah, it’s a little bit like turning your body inside out and wearing your nerves on the outside. It’s like I want everybody to read it. And also I’m terrified.

Jane Epstein [00:30:13]:
Yes.

Amy Stone [00:30:14]:
So what was, what were you, what were you afraid of? What was the, what was the fear when you gave it to them? What were you afraid that they’d do?

Jane Epstein [00:30:24]:
Well, there are, there are times in the book where my husband and I, we had a tough time. We, we struggled in a marriage and it, in our marriage, it takes two. But I, I came into the marriage with a lot of trauma and I, and I have a temper. I go from 0 to 60 and for a long Time I was seeing him in a very bad light, and I had to own up to that within the book. And yet he’s not perfect either. So I couldn’t write him as perfect in the book. So he’s very exposed out there. I mean, his friends are reading this book.

Amy Stone [00:30:56]:
Yeah.

Jane Epstein [00:30:57]:
So that was really scary to me. And. And that was also scary to me, too, because he had to read about my late husband, and then he also had to read about, you know, my trans. My. My transactional relationships. I was very promiscuous. You had to read all that. And that’s. That’s hard on a spouse.

Amy Stone [00:31:11]:
Yeah. So that zero to 60, that’s a pretty common trauma response.

Jane Epstein [00:31:15]:
Yes.

Amy Stone [00:31:18]:
Right. An outsized response to the situation. Good morning. You know. Yes, that’s. That’s the one that rears its ugly head. So. And then. So you’re writing the book and you’re talking about. So when do. So it took seven years to write the book, but at this time, it sounds like you were engaging in speaking or you were reaching out to other victims and your voice was out there. How did that happen?

Jane Epstein [00:31:40]:
I apologize, Amy. You cut out there. Sorry.

Amy Stone [00:31:44]:
Okay. Can you hear me now?

Jane Epstein [00:31:46]:
Yes.

Amy Stone [00:31:46]:
Okay. So you were writing the book for seven years, but you were also interacting with people. You were getting feedback from victims and feedback overall. How did that happen? When you start speaking or what was going on that was connecting you to the advocacy work? Because it doesn’t sound like there was an organization. So. So how did. How did that happen?

Jane Epstein [00:32:07]:
There was not an organization at the time. So I just. I started a Facebook page, a business Facebook page. And I just started posting things, and I wouldn’t get much interaction on the page, but people would start sending me dms. And then I started an Instagram page and same thing, I started getting more interaction on Instagram because people can hide under their handle. And then I really found my people on TikTok, because again, they can be anonymous under these. These names, no picture. So I started hearing from more and more people, and I thought, you know, we really need to sound the alarm. We’ve got to sound the alarm. So I actually started pitching the media, and the media just completely ignored me and. Which I understand, but I was trying to shout, and people don’t like to be screamed at. So that’s actually how I ended up getting on the TEDx stage, because I thought, well, fine, if the media is going to ignore me, then I’m going to try and land a TEDx talk. And because I was so out there, and so, you know, started doing podcasts. I had a parent reach out to me, and her, she goes under pseudonym Brandy Black. She reached out to me and she said, look, I discovered this in my home and I couldn’t find anything about it. So during COVID I wrote my own website and I would like a survivor to read over it. So that’s how I met Brandi. And in the meantime, I’d met another survivor. So that gave us three. And through my advocacy, I’d heard from parents. So I had found two other parents who wanted to be involved. And that’s how fivewaves.org was built. And now there is a website called siblingsexualtrauma.com that Brandi authored. So now there’s actually an organization that talks about sibling sexual abuse and trauma. And honestly, in the UK they’re doing more studies. The US Is behind. But now when you go to Google, Google’s not silent. It’s amazing.

Amy Stone [00:33:49]:
That is really amazing. So social media and the Internet, they get thrown under the bus all the time as being, like, the cause of many, many bad things. But one of the really great things about so many pockets of information is what you’re talking about is that in that moment where you’re like, oh, am I the only one who’s ever, you know, experienced this? Like, what is this? And you search and you can be connected with other people with a similar experience, whether that’s a hobby or something completely different, like a personality. That is one of the real blessings of the connectivity of the Internet.

Jane Epstein [00:34:22]:
I agree. I agree. I’ve connected with so many survivors over the Internet.

Amy Stone [00:34:27]:
That is very good. All right, so now in a minute, we’re going to do the final rapid fire questions, but I want to give you a chance to tell people about the ways that people can reach you. So you mentioned the organization fiveways.org and you’ve got a memoir. Tell people all about the places they can find you and interact.

Jane Epstein [00:34:44]:
Absolutely. I think the best place, if you, if you need resources, if you’re a parent or if you’re a person who’s caused harm or abuse, or if you’re a survivor, email us@infoivewaves.org and either parent or a survival survivor will respond to you. I am on Instagram at Jane Underscore Epstein Author I’m on TikTok. Jane Epstein Author but probably if you really want to connect with me, DM me on Instagram or email me. My book is called I Feel Real Guilty. It is available on Amazon, either paperback ebook. It’s even available on Audible, and it’s also available on Barnes and norble and bookshop.org.

Amy Stone [00:35:23]:
All right, and you gave me a link that I’ll include in the show notes and in the email that goes out to everybody about this so that that’s easy for people to find. It’s a lot of work to do all of that, and I don’t think this was an easy journey for you, but I’m glad that you did it and you were here to share that with us. Okay, so. And I’ll put the link to your TED Talk as well. Okay, so we end with three questions. So the idea is that you answer them with short little answers. Two or three words. They’re just for fun. They’re not related to anything else. No pressure. So far, nobody has made it all the way through with just two to three words. I’m usually the problem. I have more to say than. Than the guests. But let’s give it a shot. Are you ready?

Jane Epstein [00:36:05]:
Okay. Yeah.

Amy Stone [00:36:06]:
All right. So do you like pizza? And if so, what is your perfect pizza topping combination?

Jane Epstein [00:36:14]:
I love pizza. Perfect combination is jalapenos and pineapple.

Amy Stone [00:36:19]:
Oh, my goodness. I’m so glad I asked, because usually the question is, what do you feel about pineapple on pizza? Because people have a strong, strong preference. Pineapple. And I can see that. Pineapple and jalapeno.

Jane Epstein [00:36:33]:
Yes.

Amy Stone [00:36:33]:
Like, you put, like, a spicy margarita on your pizza combining Mexican and Italian flavors all in one profile. I love it. That’s great. Okay. Do you consider yourself a morning person or a night owl?

Jane Epstein [00:36:45]:
Morning person.

Amy Stone [00:36:46]:
Very cool. And now, last one. What is the most beautiful or memorable place you’ve ever traveled or been? And you can only pick one.

Jane Epstein [00:36:57]:
Oh, that one’s hard. I’ll say Cinque Terre, Italy.

Amy Stone [00:37:08]:
Oh, I have not been there, but the photos of that make me want to go all the time. All the time. There’s so many places in Italy. Like, there’s just all the. All the things. Every time, every time that comes up on, like, the screensaver on, like, a television or a, you know, a computer, I’m like, ah, it looks so nice.

Jane Epstein [00:37:27]:
So can’t go wrong with Italy anywhere in Italy. You can’t. You can take me anywhere in Italy and I’ll be happy.

Amy Stone [00:37:32]:
Yeah. And that’s the. It’s like there’s so much to do. You can. It’s like, it’s a big time commitment to do all of them. But you know what? That’s fine. Go back, go back, go back, go back. All right. Thank you very much. That’s it. Jane Epstein, thank you for being a wonderful guest on the Art of Imperfect Adulting.

Jane Epstein [00:37:47]:
Thank you for having me.