The question people seem to ask isn’t whether you’ll have children: it’s when. At least, that’s the assumption baked into countless conversations at family dinners, workplace small talk, and even medical appointments. But for a growing number of people, particularly women, the answer is simply: never. Emily Paulsen, host of “Curious Life of a Child Free Woman,” has built her career around exploring what happens when you reject that predetermined life path. Her journey from private decision to public advocate reveals just how much resistance still exists to a choice that, statistically speaking, is becoming increasingly common.
This conversation matters for anyone questioning whether parenthood is right for them, anyone feeling pressured to justify their reproductive choices, or anyone curious about why declining birth rates have become such a cultural flashpoint. The child free life isn’t just a personal decision—it’s a lens through which we can examine what society values, who gets to make autonomous choices without explanation, and how we treat people whose lives don’t follow traditional milestones. Paulsen’s experience illuminates a fundamental tension: between the life you’re expected to want and the life you actually choose.
When Paulsen describes walking through 13 inches of Chicago snow because she doesn’t own a car, there’s a freedom in that image that extends beyond transportation. It’s the freedom of building a life on your own terms, even when those terms require constant explanation.
From Assumption to Realization
Like many women, Paulsen grew up assuming motherhood was inevitable. The script was clear: grow up, get married, have children. But somewhere along the way, the internal narrative changed.
“I am someone who always assumed I would have children. It’s kind of what we’re all told, right? That you grow up, you get married, you have babies,” Paulsen said. “And, you know, I had this moment sometime in my mid twenties where I was like, wait, do I have to have babies? Like, is this required? And then the more I gave it thought and the more I kind of ruminated on it, I realized I probably don’t want children. Actually, I’m pretty sure I don’t want children.”
This realization didn’t arrive as a dramatic epiphany. Instead, it emerged gradually through questioning—first whether she had to have children, then whether she wanted to. That two-step process reveals something important about how societal expectations work: they’re so deeply embedded that distinguishing between obligation and desire requires conscious effort.
The cultural landscape Paulsen grew up in offered few alternatives to motherhood. “I didn’t see that there were other. There were other choices available,” she said. “Even if I had moments where I questioned it or didn’t find myself drawn to it, it didn’t occur to me that I could just not do that.” Without representation of childfree lives in media, entertainment, or even among her immediate circle, the possibility simply didn’t register as viable.
Representation matters. Paulsen pointed to an unexpected source of validation: the Barbie movie. “When the Barbie movie came out, I saw an Instagram post that said, you know, there’s no Ken Junior. Like, that’s fine. They don’t have kids,” she said. “And I was like, oh my gosh, you’re right. Like, I watched Barbie my whole life and never once was I like, where are Barbie and Ken’s children?” The absence of that narrative thread didn’t diminish Barbie’s story—it simply presented a different kind of life as normal.
Why Declaring Child Free Status Feels Like a Confession
Once Paulsen recognized her own preferences, she faced a second challenge: telling other people. The language she uses—”coming out”—isn’t accidental. It captures the weight of revealing something that contradicts expectations, something that might change how others see you.
“It was scary to tell certain people, and that’s kind of why I use the language of coming out, which, you know, I’m a straight, cisgender woman. That’s not really my experience, but it is a term that I’ve heard in the child free community,” Paulsen said. “For me, it felt really scary to tell my parents that I wasn’t going to have kids because I knew that was something that they looked forward to.”
The fear wasn’t unfounded. Paulsen’s mother responded with tears—not of disappointment in her daughter, but of grief for an imagined future that wouldn’t materialize. “My mom cried, and it wasn’t because she was upset with me. It was because I think she had already envisioned what her grandchildren would look like,” Paulsen said. “But she’s been very, very respectful and supportive of it. But that was hard.”
That initial conversation opened the door to ongoing discussions. Paulsen has revisited the topic with her mother multiple times over the years, each conversation helping to normalize the decision and reinforce that it’s permanent, not a phase. This iterative process of coming out reflects a broader pattern: one declaration rarely suffices when the decision contradicts such fundamental expectations.
The dating world presented different challenges. Early on, Paulsen made her child free status visible on her dating profile, reasoning that transparency would filter out incompatible matches. But the responses revealed a gendered double standard in how society views this choice.
“I remember this guy messaging me and being like, well, you know, the way you say it just comes across as really aggressive and, like, kind of masculine,” Paulsen said. “And I was like, well, so if I was a man saying this, would it? And he’s like, well, no, because you’re a woman, you should want children.”
The implication was clear: wanting children is feminine; not wanting them makes you deficient as a woman. This stranger felt entitled not just to question her decision but to critique how she communicated it, as if the problem wasn’t his assumptions but her failure to conform to them.
Why Your Reproductive Choices Become Public Property
Perhaps the most persistent challenge of being child free isn’t making the decision—it’s defending it, repeatedly, to people who feel entitled to explanations.
“I think there are these two things, right?” Paulsen said. “There’s the people who are very concerned about the child free for political, economic reasons, why aren’t more people having babies? And then there’s the people who, just in personal conversations, are like, but why don’t you want children?”
When Amy Stone asked what advice Paulsen would give to “polite society,” her answer was unequivocal: “Don’t ask us why. Just. Just accept it as a choice. Like, it’s that simple.”
This shouldn’t be revolutionary. People don’t typically interrogate those who do choose parenthood about their reasoning, their financial stability, or whether they’ve really thought it through. The assumption is that having children is a legitimate choice requiring no justification. But choosing not to have children is treated as a puzzle to be solved, a decision that demands explanation and, often, correction.
The questioning reveals what society truly values. “It’s this thing of people not, you know, respecting that choice and seeing it on equal footing,” Paulsen said. “Like, I could choose to have kids. That’s great. I could choose to not have kids. That’s great. It is still, I would say, largely in the cultural consciousness that people look at you like you’re broken, you’re making a mistake, you’re less than, or you’re just flat out selfish and wrong.”
The “selfish” accusation particularly galls Paulsen. The logic fails on multiple levels: it assumes that having children is inherently selfless (a questionable premise), that not having children serves only the self (ignoring the myriad ways childfree people contribute to their communities), and that selfishness is a valid criticism of reproductive choices at all.
Workplace Inequities
The personal judgment extends into professional spaces, creating structural inequities that affect both parents and childfree employees, albeit in different ways.
Paulsen recounted an incident that crystallized this dynamic: “I had a coworker once who we were on a team, and she had, I think, two or three kids. And she got to work from home two days a week. And our managers said, well, that’s because, you know, she needs to be there to take care of her kids. And it’s like, okay, but we all have a life.”
The underlying assumption—that parenting responsibilities are more legitimate than other life commitments—creates a false hierarchy. “That’s coming from a place of we don’t respect this person’s life as much because they don’t have children,” Paulsen said. “And I think if we can extend the same courtesy to everyone, to say you have a full, rich, varied life and you might need flexibility for that, then we can eliminate this feeling of like, the parents versus the non parents.”
Stone, speaking from the parent perspective, acknowledged her own complicity in these dynamics. She described feeling envious of childfree friends’ flexibility while simultaneously expecting accommodation for her own parenting responsibilities. “I know I have benefited from parental privilege, if I’m going to just be really honest,” Stone said. “Can I. I have kids. I have to leave. That’s not fair to the person who doesn’t have kids.”
The solution isn’t to eliminate support for parents—it’s to recognize that everyone deserves flexibility and respect, regardless of whether they’re caring for children. Some childfree adults are caring for aging parents. Others have health conditions, creative pursuits, or community commitments that deserve equal consideration. The point is that you shouldn’t have to justify your need for work-life balance by producing children.
Why We Police Each Other’s Choices
One of the more insightful moments in the conversation came when Paulsen used the “crabs in a bucket” analogy to explain why parents and non-parents sometimes view each other with suspicion or resentment.
“It’s this crabs in the bucket thing, you know, we’re all in the bucket and someone’s trying to get out and we’re like, why does she get to get out? Like, we all should have to suffer here,” Paulsen said. “We’re looking at the wrong villain. The villain is that the bucket exists. It’s not the crab that’s trying to escape.”
The “bucket” in this metaphor is a society that doesn’t adequately support anyone—not parents, not childfree people, not caregivers of any kind. Instead of fighting among ourselves over scraps of flexibility and accommodation, we should question why those resources are so limited in the first place.
This framework reframes workplace tensions. When childfree employees resent covering for parents, or when parents resent childfree colleagues’ perceived freedom, the real problem isn’t each other—it’s a system that pits people against one another rather than providing sufficient support for everyone’s needs.
“If parents had, you know, adequate paid leave and childcare and all of these things that they need to, you know, raise children, like, would they be. And I would hope not,” Paulsen said. “And I can only speak for myself, but I would hope that these frictions wouldn’t exist if structurally it was set up in a better way.”
Normalization Over Justification
Near the end of the conversation, Stone made an observation that cuts to the heart of why the child free movement matters: “All of your points are so compelling. And I think the reason they’re compelling is because they’re logical. They’re measured. You’re not mad. You didn’t do anything. You said you came out, but you’re not. It’s not like a. It didn’t, to me, when I read it, come off as like an aggressive thing, you know? And I was like, oh, like you’re just a person.”
That reaction—surprise at encountering a childfree person who is simply “just a person” rather than angry, broken, or militant—reveals how distorted the cultural narrative has become. The expectation that Paulsen would need to be defensive or emotional about her choice shows how far we are from treating it as genuinely normal.
Normalization is the goal, and it’s happening gradually. “More and more people are, you know, making this choice, being public about this choice, maybe not going on a podcast about this choice, but in their personal lives, having these conversations with people and just really being vocal about, like, this is normal,” Paulsen said. “This should be a perfectly acceptable life choice that we see on equal footing as choosing to have children.”
The demographic data supports this cultural shift. More Gen Z individuals are questioning whether they want children. Birth rates continue to decline in the U.S. and other developed countries. Researchers are creating more nuanced categories to capture the variety of experiences—childfree by choice, biologically childless, socially childless, ambivalent, undecided—rather than treating everyone without children as a monolith.
Media representation is slowly catching up, too. Beyond the Barbie revelation, Paulsen is creating her own representation through “Curious Life of a Child Free Woman,” a podcast that explores topics from menopause to solo travel to death doulas through a childfree lens. By demonstrating the richness and variety of childfree lives, she’s helping to expand what people envision as possible.
But individual stories and cultural shifts only go so far without structural change. Workplace policies need to support all employees’ needs for flexibility, not just parents. Healthcare systems need to respect reproductive autonomy without judgment or gatekeeping. Social norms need to evolve so that declining to answer intrusive questions is acceptable, and asking them in the first place is recognized as inappropriate.
What Freedom Actually Looks Like
Throughout the conversation, small details illustrated what Paulsen’s childfree life actually contains. She walks everywhere in Chicago, even through 13 inches of snow, because she doesn’t own a car. She and her partner bought a custom couch that seats 15 people for entertaining. She’s trying to avoid fast fashion. She checks work emails in waiting rooms—a habit she’s not proud of but honest about.
These aren’t the details of someone living an incomplete or selfish life. They’re the details of someone making deliberate choices about how to spend her time, money, and energy. Some of those choices are possible because she doesn’t have children; others would be possible regardless. The point is that she gets to decide, and that decision doesn’t require justification.
“I, you know, I’m not angry at you or anyone else who has kids. Good for you. I think that’s lovely. I love that for you. I see the joy that people get from having children,” Paulsen said. “I’m not suggesting everyone should be child free. I’m saying, respect my choice the way I respect yours.”
That reciprocal respect is the foundation of a more inclusive society—one where diverse life paths are genuinely valued rather than merely tolerated. Where “when are you having kids?” is recognized as intrusive rather than polite conversation. Where workplace policies support caregiving of all kinds. Where seeing a childfree life represented in media doesn’t feel radical but ordinary.
The child-free life is rising not because of a moral failing in society or a rejection of family values, but because more people are examining their options and making choices that align with their own values, desires, and circumstances. Some of those choices are constrained by economics, careers, or lack of support structures—factors that deserve attention and reform. Others are simply preferences, and preferences don’t require defense.
Paulsen’s advice to polite society remains the simplest and most profound: don’t ask why. Just accept it as a choice. Treat it as normal. Move on. The person who chooses not to have children owes you no more explanation than the person who chooses to have them. Both deserve to live their lives without constant interrogation about choices that are, ultimately, nobody else’s business.
This article was inspired by an interview with Emily Paulsen and Amy Stone on The Art of Imperfect Adulting podcast. https://imperfect-adulting.captivate.fm/listen https://www.youtube.com/@imperfectadulting To hear more compelling conversations like this one and receive special offers from our guests directly to your inbox, join our email community today.
Child-Free Life: Interview Transcript Emily Paulsen with Amy Stone | The Art of Imperfect Adulting | February 2026
Amy Stone [00:00:05]:
Welcome to the art of imperfect adulting. Emily Paulson, are you ready for a fun chat today?
Emily Paulsen [00:00:11]:
I am thrilled to be here. Cannot wait.
Amy Stone [00:00:13]:
Yay. I start with the same question every single conversation. What part of the world do you call home?
Emily Paulsen [00:00:20]:
I’m in Chicago, Illinois. So there are. There’s 13 inches of snow on the ground right now. So winter. Yes. Yeah, I’m in a winter wonderland here in Chicago.
Amy Stone [00:00:31]:
All right, so I’m going to ask you about winter activities and then I’ll share my latest snow escapades. All right, so random warmup question. What is your favorite outdoor winter activity?
Emily Paulsen [00:00:42]:
This is the most boring and non athletic answer. It’s walking. And I think I’ve just conditioned myself. Like, I walk in the city. I don’t have a car, so I have. Whether there’s 13 inches of snow or not, I have to walk to go to the grocery, to go to the gym, to do whatever. So I’ve decided that I love it, I embrace it. And you know, the brisk air in your face, it probably does something for our health. So that’s my choice.
Amy Stone [00:01:03]:
Let’s go with that. Let’s go. I don’t have any data to back that up, but I agree. So I just got back from a family trip. I live in the tropics. I live in South Florida, but I just got back from dragging my kids and all of the, my adult kids and all of the luggage chasing snow in the Pacific Northwest. We thought we’d get to ski, but we did not know. I’ve never prayed for snow so hard. Like, I’m not a deeply religious person. So like, I’m talking about, like just, you know, wishing, snow, dancing like I was a 5 year old. Not a 5 year old. However old you are, when you want a school day, a snow day from school, I was like, please snow, please no snow. No snow. No snow, no ski.
Emily Paulsen [00:01:40]:
Sorry.
Amy Stone [00:01:42]:
So when you said 13 inches, I was like, why? Why Mother Nature? Why in Chicago and not where I was? All right, so enough ranting about the weather. 13 inches feels like a lot. Gotta say. Okay, not talking about snow, that’s not the topic. Even though I’m having trouble staying off that topic. What we’re going to talk about today is you going public with your lifestyle choice to be child free. And I think this is going to be a fun conversation because I have a bunch of kids and step kids and I love them, I really do. When they listen to this show, it’s a reminder. I do love you, but I have been openly envious of many of my child free friends over the past two and a half decades, I will admit. So I’m excited talk to you about this today. Are you ready to talk about it?
Emily Paulsen [00:02:29]:
Yes. I love this topic.
Amy Stone [00:02:30]:
Yeah. Oh, I’m so good about this. All right, let’s start here. As you probably know, this is actually a trending topic in mainstream news at the moment because people speculate that there is a decline of this on the rise. Is this something that you research and you like stay on top of as like a person or is it mostly just something where you’re like, this is my experience and this is where I.
Emily Paulsen [00:02:51]:
Weigh in on it. It’s a little bit of both. I mostly I speak from my experience and really I try to think about the child free perspective. I feel like that is what is largely underrepresented in pop culture cultural conversations really on everything from like celebrity gossip all the way to serious healthcare. Like what is happening with child free people? How are we different? How are we living life different? How do we need things to be resourced for us in a different way? That’s what I think about and probably talk to people most about. But yes, there are statistics now. We have data that more women, women specifically. And then of course there’s an equal and opposite side of that equation with men.
Amy Stone [00:03:34]:
Right.
Emily Paulsen [00:03:35]:
More people are deciding to be child free. More Gen Z people are on the fence about whether or not they want to be child free. That’s happening in the U.S. it’s also happening in some other countries around the world. In Scandinavia there’s new reporting out of the uk And I’m not an economist, but I am fascinated. Like this conversation gets deep really quickly when we talk about what is the impact on the GDP and what does this look like for the educational system of the future. And you know, you can get really tactical or really philosophical with it. And I don’t claim to be an expert in any of those fields, but it signals to me that there is a voice here, there’s a movement here, there’s something shifting culturally and, and ask somebody who’s known they want to be child free for a long time. I’m excited to pay attention to that.
Amy Stone [00:04:23]:
Yeah, I agree. So I did a little bit of googling. I’m going to show you some things and you can chime in on whether or not you think I found good data or whether or not it’s poppycock. So I found that there’s like two sort of data groups that people are looking at. One is like the census Data like adults ages 15 to 44 and whether or not they say they have kids, right? And then the other is survey information where they ask people. Like, right now we’re asking the gen zers like, do you think you want to have kids? And I think that’s really interesting because that’s like. And they’re asking people of all ages 15 to 44, do you want to have kids? But I think that’s interesting because that’s like, perspective on something that hasn’t happened. Just different data. And then to make this data even less reliable than it might already be, just because all family data is sort of like, you know, depends on who you ask and who’s asking and how you write the question. Not that it’s bad data, just that I. I think survey writers are. It’s an art, right? You can write the question to get whatever you want. Like, you should be segmenting out people in different categories, right? Like people who are trying to have kids that are battling health conditions or they’re not, you know, like, versus people who make the choice. Like, there’s, like, categories, right? That would come into research. Like, why are people making these decisions? Right? So this group, like, right. Like, that would be like, it’d be interesting to know, like, is it because, you know, life is expensive in the city, or is it because you decided when you were five? No way. Right? And so this came from this data. Some of it came from Michigan State University. There was a 20 years of data about something called the National Survey of Family Growth, which sounds official, but I have no idea if it really is. And they broke it down into a bunch of categories, which I think are fun, which is why mentioned who it was super academic. Like, academics do stuff like this, right? So child free versus biologically childless, socially childless. You might know what the difference between those two. I read them and I was like, I’m not exactly sure. Not yet. Parents ambivalent and then undecided. So I was like, the biologically childless and the socially childless. I was like, I don’t know what those are.
Amy Stone [00:06:35]:
So. But people are researching it, People are talking about it. And. And one of the I think is really interesting about that, which you talked about, like, the social implication is that there’s a point where it’s like, well, why does anybody care? Like, why does anybody care about whether or not we’re having kids? One of the things when I was looking at the data is I found two ways that they track it with women specifically. One is they’re tracking it by births.
Emily Paulsen [00:07:00]:
Per women.
Amy Stone [00:07:01]:
Like, so, like back in the 60s, that statistic gives me a little bit of an ick factor, I’ve got to admit, because it feels like it’s like, why does. Is there like a quota like that we’re supposed to be getting here? Maybe that’s just me. Probably they didn’t. Maybe they didn’t mean it that way. And then the other is that the CDC just does a baby count every year? Like, these are live births over the year that’s actually increasing. Like, that went up 1% last year. So I think that it’s like, weird that it’s like, it’s like this one is going up, but if you survey the women and look per woman, it’s going down. Which I think is the one that catches the headlines. Because it’s like once we fell below 2, all the economists were like, ah, everybody needs to have more kids. So, yeah. All right, so that’s the data. Does that line up with the stuff that you have heard?
Emily Paulsen [00:07:49]:
Yes, it does. Yeah. I mean, I have so many feelings about it, but yes, that aligns. And I think the childless biologically and childless socially. My. I’m not a. No, but, you know, more than me there. But my feeling would be, I mean, biologically meaning unable to physically carry or create children. And socially, perhaps haven’t found a partner yet, aren’t in a social position to have children.
Amy Stone [00:08:16]:
Oh, that does make sense. I’m glad that you weighed in on that because that does make sense. And then within. So, like, family construct. Right? Is this like, really complicated topic? Because there are people who raise children who, like, didn’t have children, and there’s a bunch of categories of them as well. People who adopt kids, people who are foster parents, step parents, kinship guardians, all of those things. And they don’t fit under the category. And you talk about, like, where does it, you know, health care, medical care, they have all kinds of specialty things that they’re just outside of, like the major box. And it’s a specialty thing. All right, so after all of that gobbledygook research, I do actually have a question here for you. How old were you the first time? This may not be a good question, but do you have a sense of how old you were the first time you can even remember thinking about the grownup topic of being a grownup, having a family, any of that stuff?
Emily Paulsen [00:09:12]:
Yes. Yeah. I think growing up as a traditional little girl in a traditional family in a small town, the construct of mothering is baked into the way we play from an extremely Young age, I got baby dolls for Christmas. I was obsessed with Barbie when I got older. And then, you know, you’re obsessed with Barbie. And then Barbie has a wedding and Barbie has a baby and Barbie has a family. Like just the idea of motherhood was ubiquitous in what I imagined a grown up woman to be. And you know, you’re. I was raised by my own mother. She was a person. I was spending time with all, all my friends, I was with their moms. So I think for a long time I just felt like, well, that is what it is to grow up. And surely when I grow up, I’ll do the same thing. Then time goes on, you grow up a little bit, you become a teenager and you start to kind of go through this phase of questioning, what do I want my life to look like? And do I want it to look like something that isn’t familiar to me? Do I want to move to a big city if I grew up in a small town, Do I wish I lived on a farm if I grew up in an apartment? Right. Like, you start to consider that you could do things differently from what you’ve seen before in your immediate circle. And then we have media and movies and storytelling and you know, you meet other people, then you go to college, you get more perspectives and all of those things are just systematically broadening our horizons for what’s possible. And something happened to me when I was, you know, I felt like I was seriously dating, even though I was still like in my late teenage years, early 20s. But I felt like, you know, things are kind of coming together and we’re getting locked down and like, I don’t know, am I going to get engaged one day? And what would that be like? And it’s like all of a sudden motherhood was sort of upon me. And before it was this thing that, like, maybe one day I’ll probably want it because that seems to be what all women want. And then I was like, the idea of it felt just so unnatural, like I can’t imagine myself doing that. And that nothing, nothing about it seemed like in alignment with who I was or what I wanted or how I pictured my future. So when I allowed myself to think, what if I just didn’t? Like, what if I just didn’t ever have to have a kid? And that felt like such a relief, like just an opening to this other lifestyle that I had so rarely seen modeled. So that. And then of course, I wanted to follow that instinct and just kind of feel into, well, what would I be giving up? What would it look like if I didn’t. And a huge reason why I like talking about this now is because there is so little representation of just witnessing a happy, normal, standard, well adjusted life without children. So it took me some time between that kind of epiphany moment at, let’s say 21 to being where I am now at 38. A lot of conversation, a lot of internal thinking, a lot of meeting people reflecting. But that’s probably the earliest memory where I felt like just the concept that I might not have to seemed so much more aligned with me than the idea of doing it.
Amy Stone [00:12:12]:
So I love that we’re going to come back to representation in a second because I have some thoughts about questions there. But I want to touch base on the fact that you used Barbie as an example because the history of Barbie is that the person who is that it’s not a baby doll. Like so she actually. So I mean Barbie’s like a, you know, a whole like Pandora’s box of messaging and feminine and all of the whatever. Like. And the movie was great, but the story, the way I know it from the Barbie movie, that’s where I learned this. So if it’s wrong, call me in is that the creator was like, listen, let’s give girls a toy that is literally not, you know, indoctrinating them to care for a baby. Like, here’s your play kitchen, here’s your play vacuum cleaner, and here’s your play baby doll. Like, you know, so there we go there. So I thought that was interesting. So when we talk about representation, there’s a lot of ways to talk about because it’s really important. Like there’s a huge amount of research on all things. It’s not just girls and boys. But it’s harder to imagine something that you’ve never existed. Not that people don’t do it. People create new stuff all of the time. But it’s easier to imagine doing something if you’ve seen somebody do it. And because every single kid has a parent, we grow up in a bubble where it’s very possible to leave that all people have kids because that’s all you, you and all we and all our friends. Like, we’re surrounded by adults who had. That’s how we got there. There’s no one around us who didn’t do it. And so the very first conversation, you have to be a cycle breaker. And if you do this, you’re breaking the cycle. So. So you were a teenager when you began to first think about this yourself. And in a serious relationship Teenage relationship. And it was very clear to you from the start that you were like, not. You were not sure, not interested.
Emily Paulsen [00:14:03]:
Yes. And I do think, well, I love Barbie. And I love Barbie. You’re right.
Amy Stone [00:14:09]:
Barbie.
Emily Paulsen [00:14:10]:
Yeah, you’re right.
Amy Stone [00:14:11]:
She’s a fan club.
Emily Paulsen [00:14:12]:
Yeah. She was invented to kind of show this other side. She was independent. Right. In the construct of Barbie as a storyline. She’s not married to Ken, Ken is the boyfriend. And Barbie has her own house. It’s not Ken’s dream house where Barbie sleeps over, it’s Barbie’s dream house. Right. So I think what draws us to that culturally is this idea of possibility. And what you’re describing is so critical. Yes. We have innovation and we have people who break the mold and bring literally fresh perspectives we haven’t seen or thought of before. Most of us aren’t doing that. We’re collecting data from the world around us and looking to others in our personal circles or on the screen or through a doll like Barbie. Right. Whatever that may be. And it just kind of gives you that little inch of understanding that maybe I could try this, maybe I could go that direction. And my goal is to never convince anybody to be child free. I feel like, you know, this is a, this is a choice, like what could possibly be more personal. My goal is for women, for all people really to understand themselves well enough to make a choice that’s right for them. And I think that choice becomes a lot more.
Emily Paulsen [00:15:22]:
Fair when you see both sides of that decision. We have a lot of examples of what it looks like to be a parent and I think that’s amazing. Like in the world of the Internet and community and memberships, more resources for mothers, more resources for dads, maternity leave, paternally, like, I think all of that is incredible and we need more of that. I want the same type of thing for child free people too. Just so that when that young person or person of any age is thinking, I don’t know what I want, especially if you feel ambivalent about it, it’s really hard to even collect the data and understand, well, what would my life look like? What would my job look like? Where would I live if I don’t have two bedrooms in my house for a little girl and a little boy? What would I do in my house if I’m not going to Little League practice on Saturdays? What am I going to do on Saturdays? There’s a lot of questions that come up when you really start to consider it. So I just think having options that are visible to us on all Sides of the equation, all family dynamics. And we’re just talking about, like, kids or not kids. Right. There’s so many ways to build a family. I think the more we show and share that, the more people can find the path that’s really right for them, 100%.
Amy Stone [00:16:35]:
And so as you were talking about that experience from my own, light popped in my head, which is not actually related to kids, but when I was working in an office and I was part of a team, and I think this was a lunchtime conversation, but it’s two decades ago, so the details are fuzzy. But one of my co workers was saying how unfair it is that people who were smokers, they got like basically unlimited sort of breaks to go outside and take, like free time. But those of us who weren’t, we had the. I don’t, I don’t remember what that work. It was like, you know, 15, two 15 minute breaks or whatever the rules are that was required. And he was like, it’s almost like they’re incentivizing us, like, we should all take up smoking. And I was like, well, not sure that’s the. Not sure that’s the goal there, but it is an interesting thing. So. Because with maternity and paternity, like, so family leave from corporations, there’s laws and there’s regimented breaks and whether or not you get paid and whether or not your life is guaranteed, your job is guaranteed and all of those things, and it doesn’t apply to people who are not in that situation while they’re working for the company. So. And there’s a bunch of people that doesn’t apply to people who are older and are not doing it. People who work there and don’t have kids, like at the. It just is not. It’s like, it’s, you know, and I’m not saying it’s bad or anything, but it is. It is a situation where there’s not 100% unilateral. Everybody’s got the same situation, which is probably true for everything.
Emily Paulsen [00:17:58]:
Yeah, I think so. I think I’ve thought about. Somebody brought that up to me recently and they were like, do you think that’s unfair? Like, do you feel like you should have gotten three months off? To me, nothing looks harder than birthing and raising an infant. So I feel like, you know what? Take the three months at minimum. I think we need that as a national requirement. I own such a small business, I have such a small team outside of this work, and I’m offering maternity leave because I feel like I don’t know how you would live without it. So, you know, I, I consider that I don’t, I certainly don’t think these people are getting three months of vacation and the rest of us aren’t. But it’s an interesting question and you know, I think it is because the.
Amy Stone [00:18:34]:
Parallel that people are starting to talk about is the caregiver. So like, because it’s a, it’s regimented when you’re talking about newborn infant. Right. But if you have a three year old who gets sick or a parent who gets sick, or your sibling, your adult sibling has a need or whatever, you don’t have those same protections. And it can be overwhelming for people trying to like, do the work because like, and that is where, that is where you hear people like come up there. Like, this is. I think that generally the thing that’s underpinning is that working for somebody in a corporation does not necessarily, it’s not necessarily supportive of a lot of the restrictive things that we have to do as humans.
Emily Paulsen [00:19:14]:
Yeah, agreed. I think there’s so many, there’s so many details within that with just workplace culture and how to treat humans through different seasons.
Amy Stone [00:19:23]:
Yeah. And I would say it has shifted in my lifetime because like back in the like 80s and 90s, there was no such thing work from home, there was no wireless. So I’m not going to say I’m an expert, like, I’m not going to say I’m an expert on those. Okay, so as you were going through this, is that like, what can you tell us how it felt when you first began to think about this? I’m curious how you felt when you were having this like, silent inner conversation with yourself. Did it feel like it was like a great awakening? Like this is really an exciting possibility. Did it feel like, oh, am I different from everybody else if I do that? Do you remember how you, when it was just you before told anybody else what was going on? How did you feel about it for yourself?
Emily Paulsen [00:20:05]:
I felt like it was a huge awakening. I felt like I had come to this idea that other women just hadn’t. And I like sort of took it into my hands, especially in my early 20s, to like spread the word that we didn’t have to have kids. So I would go to girlfriends and be like, you guys, like, good news. If you don’t have a baby, you just don’t, you just don’t have to. And most of my friends would be like, that’s insane. Of course I want to have a baby. And that’s when I felt like really, like, am I the only one who doesn’t think this looks like fun? Right. So internally I felt like, wow, I’ve really like figured this out at such a young age. I’m ready, I’m excited, I’m going to tell everybody else. Surely they’ll feel the same way I do. And the resistance when I would share this with people who I was super close with or people I trusted, and there were accepting conversations as well, but there were a lot of, like, nobody could understand that. It was almost offensive that I would say it, a lot of angst around verbalizing it in those early years. And I admit that I, I took it way too far in like almost championing the idea that, like, come to my team, come to my side. I’m not going to do it. You don’t have to do it. We could all live this life together, which I think was just immaturity and being naive and lack of self awareness in those early years. In hindsight, I’m glad because I learned a lot, right, about how deeply rooted our feelings are on this topic, how personal it is, and how we don’t necessarily have this discussion within the lens of choice. We are really excited when we hear somebody, from our sister to a coworker we barely know, somebody’s pregnant, they’re having a baby. It’s a celebration, right? And it should be. But the conversation of, like, do we want to? What are we afraid of? What does it look like? What are my options? That’s less socially acceptable, let alone celebrated. So it was that kind of outing, myself, just in my personal circle, that made me realize not everybody’s on the same page. And there’s a graceful way to discuss this without stepping on toes unintentionally.
Amy Stone [00:22:08]:
So. And that is such an important discussion because as you, as you age, like, so we all have our, you know, we don’t see the world past the end of our nose sometimes, but it’s not. I mean, there’s so many people who will react to discussions about families in different ways. And you never know what’s happening around you. And so, you know, on social media, people are doing like these outrageous, like, birth announcements. Mother’s Day is this whole thing, you know, Father’s Day, all of these celebrations that are built around family. And there are always, in any single group, there are people who have a different perspective. They’re, you know, they’re, they’ve decided not to do it. Like they just broke up with their boyfriend and they don’t know how they feel about it. Their Mother just died. They don’t get along with their. A million different things. Right. And this bigger conversation about, like, be sensitive to what you say about this in a, like, public group situation, I think is a, is a great thing for people to keep in mind. And I say that with the full exposure that I. If you had talked to me when I was 21 or 22, I was clueless, clueless. Did not realize that the person on the other side of the desk could have a completely different, you know, situation than me and not appreciate my enthusiasm for the baby shower down the hall.
Emily Paulsen [00:23:27]:
Yeah, I, I share that completely. I was clueless as well. And some of those conversations, like, thinking back to things I’ve said, it still stings, you know, just lack of perspective on other people. But I think it’s a balance now between, yes, being sensitive and paying enough attention to the fact that other people have, in some cases, wildly different experiences without changing how you feel. I can recognize that there are women all around the world who desperately want to be mothers and can’t for a reason that’s outside of their control. It’s painful, it’s emotional, it’s sad. I have empathy for that and I want to give. I want those people to have a platform to share their stories as they want to. That doesn’t mean I’m not really excited about not having kids. And that opinion, I think, is equally. That experience is equally valid. So I think it’s a fine line between being sensitive without censoring the fact that we feel a certain way about a topic too.
Amy Stone [00:24:24]:
Yeah, no, I completely agree. I completely agree. And I think that there’s, you know, there’s levels of it. There’s the, the unawareness that anybody else could ever even have a contrary opinion. Like, in my teenage years, I had a friend who did not like chocolate. And I remember when she told me, I was like, that’s not possible, Possible. Everybody likes chocolate. I just didn’t. I was just like, this is. You need to try it again.
Emily Paulsen [00:24:46]:
You know, like, yeah, or you’re lying.
Amy Stone [00:24:49]:
How is it? But the truth is she just doesn’t like it today. She still doesn’t like it. There’s that sort of unawareness, tone deafness, like, inability to even conceive of another opinion. And then there’s. There’s the reality that in, you know, put 10 people in a room and they’re all going to have a different life experience. Put 10 people in a family and they’re all going to have a different, different experience, you know, and being able to interact with them. And the thing that I think it’s hard just in community and in family and in being a human being is the sort of wacky awareness that everybody’s desires and choices are actually the most important. Like, it’s like all at the same time. All at the same time. And I think that that’s what shows up here because we do have a social climate that assumes that everybody wants to have kids, which is not true and has never, I think, been true. I don’t think, I don’t think there’s any time in humanity where you would go back and be. Every single person on the planet has decided to have kids. Like, I just don’t think that’s historically accurate. Do you have any idea? I, like, I did look this up. Any idea what the percentage is of people who are child free, like in the US like at any given time now? Ish.
Emily Paulsen [00:26:00]:
No, I don’t know the number off the top of my head, but I do know I’ve, I’ve interviewed different people on my pet costs of a lot of different ages and some of them have done a lot of research. And I mean, yeah, of course we have documentation forever from women voicing that they don’t want to have kids. They had kids, they wish they wouldn’t have had kids. Right. Like, this isn’t. I don’t think any of these feelings are new. I think we’re talking about them in a different way now. But yeah, I would be curious. I should know those numbers. I’m curious what that looks like.
Amy Stone [00:26:27]:
I think that, yeah, I think it’s probably because it is. They do break it down by age and to be historically, you know, like the conversation has shifted over time because if you were having this conversation in 1969, the issues would be different because the medical options and interventions and, you know, options were different. And so it is. And hopefully they will stay different just as a slight political notch. Please agree. But the. All right, so was, so at this time you were having this conversation just with yourself. You talked about, you branched out and you were talking to your girlfriends about this. When did it become like more of an outing, like to your family and extended network? Did that, was that, did that happen just right after that or when did that become the reality? Did you schedule like a family meeting? Was it a zoom past potatoes at the Thanksgiving dinner?
Emily Paulsen [00:27:29]:
Yeah, I, for some people, I know that is the experience. Like, yeah, I’ll speak to my own experience and then I’ll share some of the things I’ve heard from others in this community, because, as you can imagine with anybody, with any group, there’s a wide range of how these experiences happen. For me, like, I don’t remember any specific serious conversation where I, like, told my parents, like, bad news, you guys. No grandkids from me. Right. It wasn’t like that. I think I’m a ver. I’m an outgoing person. I’m an extrovert. I’m a verbal processor. So what I’m feeling is kind of out there. And I think I just started talking about it more when I was talking about it with my friends and I would talk about it with my family. And there was kind of this era where my world was still pretty small, like graduating college and getting first jobs. And, you know, I think my inner circle was probably like, yeah, this is. You know, she’s 21. Like, this is what she says she wants. Who knows?
Amy Stone [00:28:26]:
That’s what I was thinking. Yeah.
Emily Paulsen [00:28:27]:
Yeah. Like, you know, she’ll change when she gets older, when she has the right partner, when she settles down, whatever. Like, I. I’m sure that there was an internal feeling from some of those people that they don’t need to worry about it because it’s not going to stick. So it was really like, as time went on and I was getting older, which, of course, is part of this equation for women, whether we like that or not. Yeah. Then there was more, you know, like, my mom being like, well, wait, like, for real, though, forever. And have you thought about it from this perspective and, you know, a little bit more seriousness with the questions. And then when I was dating through my 20s, I felt like it was important that I was forthcoming with that. And there were, of course, dates that never went from one date to two dates, because not that I was bringing this up in the first five minutes, but if we went there and, like, what do you want your life to look like? And I would say, I don’t want to have kids. You know, there were men who were like, oh, I definitely do. And that was the end of the conversation. So it just kind of started to expand, and then it would come up at work, and, you know, once you start to hit 30, then there’s, like, a lot of questions from everybody. Like, you know, we. We talk about this in life. I think we all do this to each other, where you’re single and everybody’s like, when are you gonna get a boyfriend? Then you get a boyfriend? And everyone’s like, when are you gonna get engaged? And then, when’s the wedding? And then, okay, now you’re married. When are you gonna have a baby? Right.
Amy Stone [00:29:50]:
Like the same day. Like in the reception, people are like, when are you having kids? It’s the craziest switch. It’s like, hello, I haven’t even opened my presents yet.
Emily Paulsen [00:29:59]:
Yeah. Like, we just shove each other down the line of life and I don’t know if it’s like we don’t have anything better to talk about. Like, we should look at that. Right? Like, why don’t we have any other conversation topics? But yeah, it was really in that era of like turning 30, early 30s, where I think people kind of started, People who cared about me kind of started to panic. Like, okay, she’s really going to lose her shot if she hasn’t thought this through. So then I had to have more serious conversations. Like, remember a decade ago how I was talking about this? For me, nothing’s changed. Right. I’ve thought it through. I feel sure I’ve shared this with potential partners. Then I, I have a husband now who he was on the same page before he met me. Right. So it took some, I don’t know if convincing is the right word, but it took some time to, I guess, yeah, convince people that I was steady in this. And I think holding that confidence, conversation after conversation, year after year, allows them to be confident that there’s not going to be regrets on my end. You know, we can all kind of let this decision lie and talk about something else.
Amy Stone [00:31:03]:
Yeah, no, I think that that’s. And I think actually you mentioned the dating thing and that you didn’t necessarily bring it up on the first topic, but. Okay, I’m not on any dating profiles because I’m married. But like, I’ve seen my younger friends when they show me, I’ve seen the little profile things. It is like, it is a big thing for people who are my age who are dating, whether or not you have kids. Like, so that’s like an open part of the profile. And then. And when my friends, like in my 30s and 40s, people who are dating with people with kids and doing that thing like that, it’s a really important conversation to have. And for people who are secure in their decision. Sure. About their decision, I think you might as well lead with it. Like, here I am and I’m not interested in this. I do think that it is, I think that part of this. And tell me if I’m way off base. I think that there is a difference with the way that people receive this message about child free from men who make this announcement to Women who make this announcement is that line up with your experience and your perception?
Emily Paulsen [00:32:08]:
Yes. There are so many less questions in conversations for a man. And I ask my husband about this all the time. Like how often in a golf outing does somebody bring up kids at all, let alone discussing do we want them? Right. Or do we have them? I think it’s less part of the cultural conversation for men. And I also, I mean, yeah, I’ll stop there. I could go on forever. I think it’s rooted in what happens to the kid once it’s born and who becomes the primary caretaker for them, which we know is women. But there’s a lot there.
Amy Stone [00:32:42]:
But yeah, I mean, so I would be tempted to say that when we think about men who make this announcement that people are gonna judge them as being afraid of commitment and so on and so forth. Whereas, like you referenced that your mom was following up and I don’t know your mom and I assure you she’s very loving. So I don’t wanna throw her under the bus. That’s not my intention. But to make sure you were sure in your decision and that you were aware of the very real. Like we would, you know, we want to go for gender equity and all of these things, but there is a biological element of this. 100 year old women are not out there creating new human life yet. So, and so that is a thing that people do talk about. In my family, the only person who’s allowed to ask the kids at this point about that is the 80, she’s 88 grandma. She’s the only one allowed to ask and she can be brutal. So she’s already on the grandkids. She’s like, well, because they’re still teens. And I mean I, if you asked me when I was a teenager, I was like, no, that looks horrible. I’m never doing that. So I’m sensitive to that. And, and then I did actually change my mind, but I, you know, unrelated. But like she will pressure them and she’ll be like, well, you should change your mind. And the morbid, it’s like crazy the amount of pressure that comes from her. It’s just like, okay, pass the P’s, let’s talk about anything else. So, yeah. Did you, did you get anybody who pressured you who really put the, put like a spin on it within the family? Like, how could you do this to me?
Emily Paulsen [00:34:10]:
No, and I’m really grateful for that. I was met with a lot of acceptance and which I credit to my family, to my parents, my parents listen to my show which is centered around child free perspective. They listen to every episode and there is a real consequence. I think that’s another thing that isn’t talked about too much. You just mentioned it there with grandkids or, you know, grandmother talking to her grandkids about this. When you’re in a family unit and if you’re in a family unit you care about like I do. Yes. It’s the fact that I don’t have kids. It is the fact that from me, my parents don’t have grandkids. If my brother has a child, it won’t have first cousins. Right. So there is a ripple effect of the choice which I don’t take lightly. I don’t think we owe our choices to anybody, including our parents, our siblings, the closest people. But you know, I care about them and I care about their life experience. And that may have been part of their picture that is now no longer there because of something I’m doing differently. So I’m really grateful for the acceptance I’ve received. But the more I’m in this community, the more I realize, I feel like that’s the exception, which is unfortunate. I do think there’s a lot of pressure and I think it comes from that place of everybody kind of picturing their own life. And if there was an expectation that your kids were going to live a certain way or do a certain thing around this choice and then they kind of pull the rug out from under you and go a different direction, that’s jarring to the parents identity. So it’s not that I’m not sympathetic to that. I think that’s all very real. And we can give each other grace in how we all feel about this, but that doesn’t mean that we get to shove a choice on somebody that they, that they feel sure they don’t want.
Amy Stone [00:35:54]:
So you have just summarized absolutely every parenting book for adolescents and above. Because it’s this weird thing where you know, when you have children, like it or not, no matter how much you try to or not, you sort of, you know, make assumptions about what will happen. You know, so I have brown eyes. They’ll have brown eyes. I went to college, they’ll go to college. You know, insert will they do the hobbies and sports. I do. You run into families where everybody goes to the same college, everybody does the same jobs. Sexual orientation is a big one. Like, which surprises people. Disabilities like people who have children who are born surprisingly with down syndrome or other things. Those are big changeups. But anytime so much of the parenting struggle can Be rooted back into this, allowing the individual to be whoever they are and disconnecting yourself from, like, you know, I’m the adult and this is the kid, and they get to live their own life. So when you said that, it’s like, actually, it’s like that is there’s thousands of books that all say the same thing about that. Because it’s hard on both sides. I will say it’s hard for you were you were a young adult, 20s, when you were talking to your parents about this.
Amy Stone [00:37:12]:
I mean, it’s hard. It’s hard at that point. It’s just like, it’s hard to tell your parents that you want to quit violin lessons. It’s hard to tell. All of those things are tough. But I think that that little element is so much broader than this individual topic. Okay, so you mentioned the ripple effect there. That was in there. What other ripple effect came up when you, if any, when you decided to go public with this discussion?
Emily Paulsen [00:37:40]:
I do think voicing that you are child free gives people this societal permission to tell you what they think of you because of that or what they think about it.
Amy Stone [00:37:52]:
That sounds so fun. Kidding.
Emily Paulsen [00:37:56]:
We don’t do it in reverse, right? Like, if I’m in an Uber, this has happened not long ago. If I’m in an Uber home from the airport, I’m doing everything I can not to have a conversation. But we’re having a conversation and they ask, you know, oh, do you have kids? Which is so commonplace. I just say, no. That’s always my answer, no. Do you mind if I ask why not? And then, you know, I can decide, how much energy do I have? How much do I want to share? And I’m really comfortable with this because I’ve made this choice out of alignment and out of fun. For some people, that question is horribly painful. So I think we should stop asking it. But you never hear, like, do you have kids? Yes. Do you mind if I ask you why? Like, we don’t do it that way, right? Even the categories that you mentioned at the beginning, which are interesting and real with the statistics, but the categories of like, okay, so people are having less kids. Are they having less kids because they physically can’t? Are they having less kids because they physically can’t afford it? Are they. You know, it’s like, let’s put these into psychograph, psychographics and groups and like, study, like, why? Why are people doing this? And we don’t have big studies of parents are like, okay, you all decided to have a baby.
Amy Stone [00:39:00]:
Why?
Emily Paulsen [00:39:00]:
Because you Think your genes are superior because you think, you know, like, like, we don’t go. We don’t do that in reverse. So.
Amy Stone [00:39:09]:
But I want to be in. I want to write that survey. I want to write that survey. Let’s get all eugenics here. Did you think that your genes were superior and needed to be. Needed to be. There are people who, There are people who do have. That is actually really, really important. And I learned early on through awkward conversations, I don’t ever ask people, like, because it can go very badly. If you ask people, you know, do you, do you have kids? And I would, I can’t imagine ever asking why not. But maybe I, maybe I could. People can be horribly insensitive about these things accidentally or sometimes on purpose because this is a topic that crosses over some really, really strong feelings that align with politics and with faith and with cultural heritage. And so there, you know, it is. It’s a. And I’m not going to ask about any of those because that’s. This is the wrong, Wrong show for that. I was actually listening to a business podcast. Like I was traveling last week. And so, like I listened to 927 hours of podcasts on the flights. So I don’t rem remember what it was, but it wasn’t a family podcast. And the person was talking about whatever they were talking about. It was a woman. And she was presenting this scenario. There was an advertising scenario, branding and that kind of thing. And she was like, it was an absolute thing that like 30s, settle down, family, kids. And I was listening to it without even thinking about this interview. And I was like, that is just not even a true reality for anybody. Like, there’s individual timelines and it dovetails right into the fact that you’re saying there’s an entire segment of humanity, not a small one. I think that if we were to look how many. I think that there’s a very, very large group of people who never get married and never have children and we just ostracize them and cut them right off when we, when we design things. Like all of a sudden we’re going to Talk to all 30 year old women about family planning. You know, like, when are you. When do you want to start shopping for diapers? So, so that chafed me. And I think that what you alluded to with the like, why do you want to procreate? Is. I do think that. And this, I would definitely. It’s the best survey I would ever write. If anybody wants to do that survey. I totally am volunteering to Write the questions. I think that there is underlying bias and a very unfortunate sort of judgment that we’re making about people when we ask these questions.
Amy Stone [00:41:37]:
And so. And I think that sucks. I’m gonna just openly say that. I just think that stinks on all sides because. Does it feel to you sometimes like people are saying no? Well, the better team is the team that has the kids.
Emily Paulsen [00:41:52]:
Yes. I mean, I think in large part in society that has been the feeling. I run in circles with other child free people and I think this happens on both sides. Right. I’ve heard people say very pointedly that the choice not to have children is incredibly selfish. I’ve heard child free people say very pointedly the choice to have children is incredibly selfish. So, you know, the takeaway here is we all have a lot of feelings. I think beauty, the beauty of where we are in the world and as you alluded to, I pray that we stay here is that we have a choice. The important thing is figuring it out for yourself, having the courage, the confidence, the self awareness to make that choice proudly, whatever direction you want to go. And then I hope that we can just sort of equalize as a society. And it’s not like, okay, everybody wants to have kids. That is the norm. We don’t have to question it, we prize it, we cherish it, we celebrate it. If you’re doing something different, confusing, strange, weird, right? I feel like we’re, we’re getting better. We’re still a little bit there. And I don’t take offense when people ask me. I’ve had all types of questions from people who, you know, I literally just met. Right. An Uber driver. I’ve had all kinds of questions. I don’t find that offensive. I think it comes from a place of hopefully genuine curiosity, misunderstanding. Like maybe this is a lifestyle they’ve never considered. Maybe they don’t know anybody who’s child free by choice. And it’s just, just straight up, like what you know, why do you want to. Do you want to share more? I think like that’s the best of intentions, right. And that’s our human nature. When we don’t understand something or we’ve never lived a certain way, we kind of want to know about it. We kind of don’t get it. But I think with this topic in particular, treating it that way automatically makes it feel like it’s less than. And it’s not. It’s just a parallel life path. Nothing is better, nothing is worse. It’s just a different way to live.
Amy Stone [00:43:49]:
A different way to live. And This, I don’t think this is your situation, but we don’t, we’re not like lifelong best friends. So I don’t know. But there is absolutely. There are women out there who are making this decision for a variety of situations. And one of those is that the biological clock, which we just talked about, that aligns also with the top earning clock. And so there are people who are having very serious thoughts in their own head about can I do this now or do I have to wait? Or how does this align? And that’s a hard conversation. And the thing is that the more we talk about it and the more people who talk about it, the more that becomes an actual fair conversation and something that people can do. Because I think that there are a lot of people making that decision or not making the decision, having that conversation with themselves silently and alone because there’s no safe space place to talk about it. So like, I think about, you know, you’ve got professions like doctors and lawyers who they want to work real hard and it’s probably others, engineers. But you also have the very, very forward entertainers who like movie stars and actors who they, their profession is aligned with what their body looks like. And they’re. There’s no way for them to live outside of the gaze of the public. Right. People are gazing at them and making decisions. And we see it a lot. You talked about people making judgments. Wow. They. People second guess and judge everything they do. So, you know, you’ve got very, very, very public stories like of celebrities who adopt because they want a family and they don’t do that. And then people will choose somebody who’s not alive anymore. So that it’s not like a conversation that people argue with. But like you’ve got Betty White who like did not have kids and raised her step kids and was very late in life, was open about the fact that that’s why she did that.
Emily Paulsen [00:45:40]:
Yeah, I think that’s an important piece of this to me. Again, just like more conversations begets more knowledge about how people are feeling, why they’re doing the things that they’re doing. If there are societal boundaries, like I’m not going to be cast in my job anymore if I get pregnant at this point in life, you know, I’m going to lose this opportunity or this earning potential or something like that. I hate to think that at this day and age in society, we have barriers like that that force people into such a permanent decision. Like, if you feel like I cannot possibly take a break from my career right now to have kids But I really wish I could have kids. That’s a big problem that we should figure out how to fix within workplace culture. To me, that’s different than feeling like I don’t want to have kids.
Amy Stone [00:46:28]:
Yeah.
Emily Paulsen [00:46:28]:
Instead I’m going to focus on my career. Right. It’s not a cause and effect. I, that makes me sad to think that. And I know, I mean career is sort of a fun run. Right. There are all kinds of other reasons with physical trauma. You mentioned able bodiedness, abuse, you know, we can go into some really dark places. There are a lot of women who don’t have kids because they don’t want to perpetuate a situation that they themselves out of. You know, so there’s a wide range here. But that’s the stuff that I find to be really heartbreaking. If we strip this back to choice. If you really believe that having a kid is going to cause you to lose something that’s precious to you, then that’s not really a choice. Right. That’s like a cause and effect loop that we have to figure out how to fix. So I hope that, you know, women are career women because they want to be career women. And if they want to have a kid in conjunction with that, they’re able to figure out how to do it. And I think we as child free people can support them in that too.
Amy Stone [00:47:23]:
Yeah. And I think that opening the space up for the conversation is a big piece of that. And I’ll give a theoretical example. It’s not a real story. It doesn’t exist. But when like, so as somebody who has, it’s very famous. It doesn’t have to be my own personal story. Sleep is not a thing that happens when you have small humans in your house, like you’re very, very tired. But if you don’t have a scenario in your family, in your community, in your job where you can talk about that with the people around it for whatever reason, then there’s ripples like that. It’s like, do you go to work and fake it through that when you’re sleep deprived? Does your boss assume that you’re sleep deprived or that you can’t do it? Like there’s two sides of that, right. Like nobody wants their surgeon to be sleep deprived. But also there are ways that people can run their family and prioritize that and have good, you know, and do that. Not being able to talk about it without risk of shame, judgment, persecution, penalty. That’s a problem.
Emily Paulsen [00:48:22]:
Yes, that’s a problem. That’s a critical thing. A lot of the articles I read you mentioned at the beginning, this is kind of becoming more of a buzzword in culture. And there’s more publications, more research being done around this whole concept of having kids, not having kids. And a lot of the articles I read, it’s like the angst between women, between co workers, between friends, between sisters, where one of them has a baby, one of them doesn’t have a baby, and they both constantly assume that the other one is making negative assumptions about their life.
Amy Stone [00:48:51]:
Or the one who doesn’t have kid is always available to show up, to do the babysitting, to do the things, which is not fair. Yeah, and I did that last question. I was totally talking about it from the point of view of the person who has kids. But it’s like, yeah, no, assign this task to this person. They don’t have a family. That would be really unfair.
Emily Paulsen [00:49:10]:
Like, that’s, you know, it happens. And that is unfair. That’s happened to me in jobs before where it’s like, everybody has to be at daycare by six, but like, Emily, you don’t. Can you finish up for the day?
Amy Stone [00:49:21]:
Just work forever?
Emily Paulsen [00:49:22]:
Emily. Yeah, yeah, like that. That’s frustrating. And yet I also realize that you do have to be at daycare at 6 and I don’t want you to not spend the evening with your baby either. Like, you know, so some of these things, I feel like it’s just. And I don’t know the solution, but I feel like when we witness, like we get mad and we have these disagreements and we feel like, well, this isn’t fair and we’re comparing to each other and we’re jealous because she doesn’t have kids, or we’re jealous because she gets to leave because she does have a kid. Like, that shows to me that there’s something underlying there. Why can’t we all leave at 6 in this imaginary CIS area? Like, how do we get there? And then it won’t matter what you do when you get home with that free time. And that, you know, workplace is just one thing. But I don’t really think it’s the question of, like having kids or not having kids that causes division among women. I think it’s like the societal circumstances that get put on us in each of those categories that give us angst about each other.
Amy Stone [00:50:13]:
So I agree with that. I actually, you know how crabs in the bucket analogy, where the crabs will pull each other down. Okay, so my thing with that, because they talk about like, women will attack each other, like, so in the workforce, like, people Will like that. And they describe it as crabs in a bucket.
Emily Paulsen [00:50:29]:
But.
Amy Stone [00:50:29]:
But my thing with that is that we humans are not crabs. And the reason the crabs are like pulling each other down is because they’re crabs and they don’t know and they’re all just trying to get out of the bucket. Right. So it’s a bad analogy. But what’s missing is the structure in the ladder. Like if there was a ladder or a path, the crabs would just walk out of the bucket. Right. And so within that same thing, it’s like, I think the reason that within groups, people, you know, sort of attack each other and get competitive is that missing framework of this is how we can successfully do this overall. So that’s my little theory about that. But I don’t have that. I can’t offer it to mankind to fix it on this podcast. Okay, so in a second. Okay, so one last question and then we’ll do. We’ll move into wrap up because I could talk to you all day. Okay, what would you like to know? What would you like people to know through the world and polite society when they are talking to people who are child free? Like what’s like one thing that you wish you could just tell everybody?
Emily Paulsen [00:51:31]:
Don’t ask us why.
Amy Stone [00:51:32]:
Don’t ask you why.
Emily Paulsen [00:51:33]:
Okay, we won’t ask you why you do have kids if you do. Otherwise I would say just be normal about it. Like there’s not that big, don’t be weird. There’s not that big of a difference. Back to parallel paths, right? We’re living, we’re living life. Maybe there’s nuance within our life that looks different, but we don’t have to address it. It’s normal.
Amy Stone [00:51:53]:
Very cool. That’s. I think that’s actually really, really good advice as there was a comedian I think might have been George Carlin who was like, do not ask unless you like literally are witnessing the delivery. Like never ask. Like never ever ask. Okay. And it’s not bad advice, honestly. Okay, so in a second we’re gonna do the final questions. I wanna make sure that we share with everybody about what you do and about your show. So you have your own podcast and it is called Curious Life of a Child Free Woman. So tell us a little bit about that and the links for where people can find that and you will be in the show notes and in the email that goes to everybody.
Emily Paulsen [00:52:31]:
I really appreciate your willingness to share. It is a podcast that explores today’s most interesting topics from a child free perspective. So we talk about everything from week to week, menopause, personal style.
Emily Paulsen [00:52:46]:
Solo travel, caretaking and aging. I’ve interviewed death doulas. We have one coming up about party planning. Like, the topics really run the gamut. It’s things that I think, think we’re interested in learning more about. It’s a. It’s curiosity at its core. But I simply bring a child free lens to that conversation to highlight the things that are a little bit different for us.
Amy Stone [00:53:07]:
Love it. Curious life of a child free woman. All right, that is great. Okay. And I’m happy to do that. Are you ready, Emily, for the final three questions? These are just for fun, not about anything of any consequence.
Emily Paulsen [00:53:19]:
I can’t wait.
Amy Stone [00:53:22]:
All right. What is the most impulsive decision you think you’ve ever made that you are willing to share with totally strangers here in the audience?
Emily Paulsen [00:53:32]:
I quit a. I’ve done this multiple times. Quit a job with no backup plan or savings of note because I felt it was sucking my soul and doing nothing would be better than going there every day.
Amy Stone [00:53:43]:
So I talk. The interview I did before this, the lady talked about rage quitting. Were those rage quits one for sure.
Emily Paulsen [00:53:53]:
Desperate and rage filled.
Amy Stone [00:53:55]:
That’s so. I love that. I love that pair of words that she’s used it. And I was like, that’s fantastic.
Emily Paulsen [00:53:59]:
All right.
Amy Stone [00:54:00]:
If you are sitting in a waiting room for an appointment or a flight or whatever, and you’re alone so you can’t talk to other people. Like, you didn’t. You don’t have your own crowd. You could talk to other people. How do you entertain yourself? Do you sit in silent thought and meditation? Do you play a game on your phone? Doom scrolling with social media, texting friends or something else?
Emily Paulsen [00:54:20]:
Work emails and I hate that answer. I’m. I’m glad. I feel confronted and convicted. And that was the intention. I know. Maybe if we talk in a year, I’ll be like, I just meditate. But for now, I try to be as productive as possible in any moment of downtime, that is.
Amy Stone [00:54:37]:
It’s. If you can interview me every day from now until the end of time, my answer is never going to be meditate. I only meditate, like, because people tell me it’s good for me and I have to, like, schedule it and be like, okay, fine, I will, under pressure, do this. So. Which means I should do it more. We are recording this at the end of 2025. You have a small business, which I know about you, but you’re also just a person. Thinking back over the year 2025 and all the things you’ve bought. Now this can be personal, can be business, anything, no rules, doesn’t matter. What is the best purchase that you’ve made that you’re still happy about? And then what’s something you’ve purchased that was not great and you’re sort of, you know, annoyed or ticked off. Best and worst for the year.
Emily Paulsen [00:55:18]:
Wow. This is such a good question that I really didn’t expect as she’s trying.
Amy Stone [00:55:23]:
To come up with an answer.
Emily Paulsen [00:55:25]:
I know these are intended to be rapid fire. I’m like panicking under pressure. Okay. Worst. I’ve tried to be on this mission against fast fashion for a while now and I succumbed. It was like a last minute an event and I was like, oh, I just hate all my dresses and got something at Zara. I felt horrible about it. It fell apart after one where it was itchy all night. Like just confirmed that I should not be buying fast fashion crap. So I’m recommitted again to my goal to not do that.
Emily Paulsen [00:55:58]:
Best thing I bought. Oh, we got this goes back to my like emails and doom scrolling. We got a new couch. We got a custom couch. And I really wanted it for a long time. And. And you know, it’s like the core of our home. We entertain a lot and it’s a couch that fits like 15 people on it at once. So all of my like watching Mad Men, vintage conversation pit cocktail party. I’m trying to make those dreams come true by way of environment in my living room. And that’s one step closer.
Amy Stone [00:56:29]:
Love it. Oh my gosh. All right, Custom couch. That is so good. Once upon a time, a long time ago, we were buying a new couch. I have a big family. So like we are hard on our furniture. We went to the furniture store and we were shopping for and it was me, my husband, and like a gaggle of the children. Like it was not alone. And I had picked out this like they were finally old enough to be out of the sippy cup age, which is why. And I was like, oh, we could get a couch. And I had picked out this like fantastic like mid century caramel colored leather couch. And I was like so excited. And I turn around, entire family is on this like set, this like wraparound thing with the recliners and the seats and the refrigerator and all this stuff and they’re just so happy. And I was like, I have lost. I have lost. And for like. And we ordered that couch and came home and everybody loved it and it was like the greatest day of my life. When we, like, moved, and I was like, goodbye to that couch. Never wanted it, but everybody loved it. It was, like, hilarious. They were like, look, it reclines. Look, I have a. I was like, oh, okay. Anyway, I love the custom couch for you. That’s it. Emily Paulson, thank you so much for being a fantastic guest today on the show. You thank now.
Emily Paulsen [00:57:39]:
Thank you for having me, Amy. It’s been a joy.