Camille Miller was sitting beside a pool when she decided to end her 22-year marriage. Her husband had just jumped into the water. Moments earlier, she had asked him a simple question about money, and his answer changed everything. She stayed in the same chair, picked up her phone and called a girlfriend to say she was filing for divorce.
From the outside, nothing about her life looked broken. She was the CEO of a nonprofit. She was working on her doctorate. She had three children, a beach house and a marriage most people would call long and stable. By every standard she had been handed, she had made it.
Redefining success is often a slow collection of cracks that finally become impossible to ignore. Miller’s story traces how those cracks formed, what finally broke and what she built in the space left behind.
This story is for anyone who has checked every box and still feels exhausted. It is for Gen X women who were told we could have it all and quietly discovered that having it all often meant doing it all. It is for anyone standing at the edge of divorce, an empty nest or some other version of starting over, wondering whether the life we built still fits. The question underneath it is one many of us carry without saying it out loud. What if the markers we were taught to chase were never ours to begin with?
When Checking Every Box Still Leaves You Empty
Ten years ago, Miller had what she had worked her whole life to get. She also had a schedule that never let up. She was the breadwinner at work and the default parent at home. Her three kids were born within 17 months of each other, including a set of twins.
“I feel like I had all of the things and checked all the boxes,” Miller said. “I was exhausted. I wasn’t happy.”
She believes that exhaustion was built into the promise many women of her generation grew up with. The feminist movement of the ’80s and ’90s told women to get educated and pursue careers. Society still expected marriage and children.
“I think we’ve been sold a bill of goods,” Miller said. “You can have it all, but you can’t have it all at once.”
When she reached the top, the view was not what she expected. “I got to the top and went, oh my gosh, this doesn’t make my heart sing,” she said.
The Cracks That Come Before the Break
Miller did not leave at the first sign of trouble. She grew up in a family where divorce simply did not happen, so she held everything together and waited.
“The idea was, well, I’ll wait till my kids are older,” she said. “I’m not going to ruin everything now.”
Then the cracks started to spread. Her husband stopped working to care for his parents and was gone often. Her CEO position had been funded by a multimillion-dollar grant, and that grant was ending. At 48, she wanted to start her own company and do work that made an impact. Money was no longer her motivator. Her husband did not support the change.
When she asked for household help, he refused to hire a cleaning lady and offered to clean himself. When she asked him to cook dinner, he boiled hot dogs. “We never fought,” Miller said. “We didn’t have a bad marriage, but it just started to crack because it became so complacent.”
The final crack came at the pool. Her husband was coming into a multimillion-dollar inheritance, and Miller explained her plan to start a business. He asked how she would support the family.
“And he went, ‘That’s my money, not our money,'” Miller said.
Where Our Definitions of Success Really Come From
The beliefs that shape our choices usually form long before we notice them. Amy Stone asked Miller to look back at those beliefs directly. “In your 20s and 30s, what did you think success was going to be?” Stone asked.
Miller graduated from college in 1989, at the height of an era defined by designer labels and the idea that greed was good. She grew up in a well-to-do family that did not flaunt its money. For her 25th birthday, she bought herself a Porsche. The man she married made her sell it because he said they did not do status symbols.
At the same time, she absorbed a conflicting set of rules at home. Her father handled every bill, and her mother had no idea how the finances worked.
“I was also taught that a man will save you,” Miller said. “A strong woman does it all alone, right? So success to me was getting all of those things, and I had it.”
She added that it came at a cost. “But boy, that wasn’t really worth it in the end,” she said.
Miller now recognizes her old habit of carrying everything as a pattern. She calls it oldest daughter syndrome. “I just took care of everything,” she said. “I overperformed, which was a trauma response. But I know that now because I’ve done all of the work.”
That pattern followed her past the marriage. After her divorce, she started dating right away. A girlfriend pointed out that she was dating the exact same type. “I stopped,” Miller said. “I took myself off the market. I never went back, by the way.”
Starting Over Means Letting Go of the Markers
Walking away from the marriage also meant walking away from the evidence she once used to prove she was doing well. The beach house, the big home in a walkable town and the retirement fund had all felt essential.
“It was all important until it wasn’t,” Miller said.
The divorce was financially hard. She received none of the inheritance. She had also been raised to believe that parents stay together for the kids, and she had to rethink that belief completely.
“I had to come to the conclusion that maybe staying together for the kids is actually bad for the kids,” she said.
Her twins were 14 and her oldest was 16. She made a private rule for herself. “I made a decision with myself never to say a bad word about him to my kids, ever,” Miller said.
Some of the shift surprised her. The first weekend her kids stayed with their father, she found herself alone for the first time since becoming a mother. “I had never been without kids ever,” she said. “And I was like, this is kind of cool.”
Her kids noticed the change, too. As Miller did her inner work, she became calmer and more supportive. “My kids were like, ‘You aren’t the mother that raised us,'” she said. She explained to them that she had been in survival mode, trying to protect them.
What Authentic Success Looks Like Now
Today, Miller measures success in experiences rather than possessions. Her new definition is simple.
“If I’m able to send my kids plane tickets to visit me anywhere in the world, that’s my definition of success,” she said.
Miller and her kids call themselves the Fabulous 4. When each of them graduated from college, they chose one place in the world to explore with her on a final “Mommy and Me” trip. All three now support themselves. Miller recently became an empty nester, drives an old car and bought a house in Delaware on a whim.
“The nicest thing is I get to just decide all on my own what I feel like doing, when I feel like doing it, how I feel like doing it,” Miller said. “I think that is authentic success. I’m showing up how I want to show up in the world.”
That freedom shows up in small decisions as well as big ones. She remembers family vacations at a shore house where she did all the packing, laundry and cooking. “None of this was a vacation for me,” she said. She remembers her husband coming home from a bike ride to describe a beautiful sunset. “I was like, ‘I wouldn’t know. I’ve never seen it,'” Miller said.
After the divorce, she stopped hosting Christmas Day. Now she spends it in her pajamas or goes on a hike with her baby sister. “If I’m responsible for one more thing, I don’t want it,” she said.
Redefining Success Starts With Seeing the Pattern
Miller’s story is a reminder that the definitions we inherit can quietly run our lives for decades. She checked every box she was given. She held it all together while it was breaking. She only saw the full picture once she stepped outside of it.
“When I was in it, I didn’t see it,” Miller said.
That may be the most useful lesson for anyone in the middle of their own version of this story. The mental load, the default parenting and the constant overperforming can feel normal because they are all we know. The beliefs behind them often come from the families we grew up in and the era that raised us. Seeing those patterns is hard work, and it rarely happens all at once.
For Miller, midlife reinvention did not mean adding more achievements to the list. It meant putting things down. She let go of the beach house, the status and the obligation to do everything alone. What she gained was the freedom to decide for herself.
Her definition of success now includes a plane ticket, a trip with one of her kids or a quiet Christmas morning in her pajamas. None of it would have impressed her younger self. All of it matters more to her now.
The moment by the pool looked like an ending. It was also the first decision in a long process of starting over.
This article was inspired by an interview with Camille Miller and Amy Stone on The Art of Imperfect Adulting podcast. https://imperfect-adulting.captivate.fm/listen or https://www.youtube.com/@imperfectadulting To hear more compelling conversations like this one and receive special offers from our guests directly to your inbox, join our email community today.
Divorce: Camille Miller Interview Transcript with Amy Stone | The Art of Imperfect Adulting | September 2026
Amy Stone [00:00:00]:
This is The Art of Imperfect Adulting. I’m your host, Amy Stone.
Amy Stone [00:00:05]:
I share stories from real people who have already been through some hard stuff. Why? So that you don’t feel alone while you’re busy figuring out your own life.
Amy Stone [00:00:15]:
Let’s do this. Hello, friends. My guest today is Camille Miller. Welcome to the show today, Camille.
Amy Stone [00:00:25]:
Thank you.
Amy Stone [00:00:26]:
Are you ready for a fun chat?
Camille Miller [00:00:27]:
I am ready, and thank you so much for having me, Amy. I’m kind of excited about today’s conversation.
Amy Stone [00:00:33]:
Yay!
Amy Stone [00:00:34]:
All right, I start all of my interviews with the same 2 questions. Here we go. First one is, what part of the world do you call home? And share with us something that you love about this part of the world.
Camille Miller [00:00:47]:
I am on the East Coast, um, New Jersey born and bred. Um, I can’t say enough wonderful things about this corner of the world of New Jersey, the mountains, the beaches, the culture, the food. Um, but when this airs, I will be moving to, uh, Delaware. So also for the beaches and also filled with people from New Jersey. So that’s going to be a new adventure, a new chapter for me.
Amy Stone [00:01:17]:
Yeah, we’re having this conversation at a very interesting time in your life. And we’re not— the story is not actually about the move though. So here we go. All right, so next, these are the social generation descriptors. And I ask this question as a way of sharing with the audience like a little bit of just knowledge about you. Which of these best describes you? Silent Generation, Baby Boomer, Gen X, Millennial, or Gen Z?
Camille Miller [00:01:41]:
Definitely a proud Gen X.
Amy Stone [00:01:44]:
I love it.
Amy Stone [00:01:45]:
Me too.
Amy Stone [00:01:46]:
Me too, me too, me too. All right, so here we go. Today’s conversation is about decisions that you made to redefine success. And if I understand correctly, what we’re gonna talk about today is a story that is really kind of a time where you deconstructed a lot of your life and rebuilt from scratch. So the first question is, I think this happened in your late 40s, but how long ago was that from today? Like, how long ago did this happen?
Camille Miller [00:02:18]:
10 years.
Amy Stone [00:02:19]:
All right, 10 years.
Camille Miller [00:02:20]:
Exactly.
Amy Stone [00:02:21]:
10 years exactly, like on the decade. All right, I love it. So in order to understand the shift, um, of what happened as a result of your life before and your life now and your life in the future, I want to start by getting a description of what your life was like before all these changes. I know that— I think I know that you had an MBA, but share with us, before all these changes, what was the job, the work, the family situation like?
Camille Miller [00:02:49]:
Yeah, so, uh, 10 years ago I was married. Uh, I had a 22-year marriage. It was actually a pretty decent marriage. Um, 3 kids, which I still have. Uh, I was the CEO of a nonprofit.
Amy Stone [00:03:05]:
Okay.
Camille Miller [00:03:06]:
Um, and, you know, life was good. It was not exciting. I was working and as a mom, I also was very in my masculine energy because I did all the things. I was doing all the work, but then I was coming home and being a full-time mom. It was just a lot. It was a lot, a lot, a lot.
Amy Stone [00:03:31]:
So when you describe it, what occurs to me is that you checked a lot of the boxes on what is sometimes the considered like an implied instruction manual for success or happiness. You had not just a degree, but an advanced degree. You had a life partner in the form of a marriage. A 20-year marriage is, I think, considered by most people to be pretty successful. You had procreated and made 3 new humans. You had a job, and you were the CEO, or you were in the nonprofit space, and you had a job. You were very, very busy. But what was going on that sort of tipped this off? What was the first decision or thing that you can remember that was a clue that change was coming?
Camille Miller [00:04:21]:
I feel like I had all of the things and checked all the boxes. At that time, I was also doing my doctorate work. I was exhausted. I wasn’t happy.
Amy Stone [00:04:34]:
Okay.
Camille Miller [00:04:34]:
Like, I had all the things that I worked my whole life for, right? And on the outside, people probably said, wow, like, that’s so cool, right? And that’s really what I was aspiring to, and it just was not working out. My marriage became very strained over all of it because I was doing all of the things. Um, it was exhausting. Um, I felt like I was missing out a lot with my kids, although I was the primary caregiver and I was there for everything. It— I felt like I had so many plates in the air between my job and being a full-time mom and my doctorate work. I was fulfilled in different areas, but there was too much happening all at the same time.
Amy Stone [00:05:25]:
So I’m going to ask a couple of follow-up questions about that.
Camille Miller [00:05:29]:
Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:05:29]:
Because I’ve had several conversations on this topic over the past couple of years, and I hear there are patterns that show up in these conversations. So you were very busy, and you described yourself as the primary— sometimes I hear the word default parent in this situation.
Camille Miller [00:05:51]:
It’s both, yeah.
Amy Stone [00:05:52]:
Would you say— and if I use words that don’t make any sense, let me know and I’ll do it. And if I ask something that’s too private, tell me to buzz off. Would you say that part of what was going on in your family was inequity in the workload for running the family?
Camille Miller [00:06:08]:
Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely.
Amy Stone [00:06:12]:
That’s— I mean, it’s a really, really common thing that I hear about, and it’s a complicated issue. So it’s— and yeah, no, I just was curious about that. The second thing I wanted to ask you is that it is very frequent when I talk to people about this, the internal perception that other people are looking at our life and thinking, oh, that looks like happiness. There’s a piece of me—
Camille Miller [00:06:37]:
Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:06:37]:
I’ve had so many of these conversations that there is a piece of me that wonders whether or not that is just a sort of, you know, cultural myth, whether or not when we women look at each other and we see somebody, we’re like, ah.
Camille Miller [00:06:57]:
Yeah, I think we’ve been sold a bill of goods, right? As women, especially Gen X women, that marriage was something that we strived for. That was what society expected. We had the kids, but back in the ’80s and ’90s with the feminist movement, it was about getting educated, about being equal, about having all the jobs, right?
Amy Stone [00:07:22]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:07:22]:
You can have it all, but you can’t have it all at once. Like, it’s, it’s just exhausting. So I did all of it. I like, and I got to the top and went, oh my gosh, this doesn’t make my heart sing. Like, this is just too much. And it, and it all just started to break, right? And then I was holding it together while I was seeing it breaking.
Amy Stone [00:07:48]:
Mm.
Camille Miller [00:07:49]:
And, you know, and I was holding it all together and just kind of, um, um, they say treading water, you know, to keep it all together. I was the major breadwinner, so I couldn’t really leave the job. Um, but I was also the primary parent with very little help. It was, it was all of the things, and I did it. And then one day I decided I don’t think so.
Amy Stone [00:08:16]:
Do you? Was it, was it really one day? Or when you look back now, 10 years later, was it a slow avalanche of not anymore, not anymore, not anymore?
Camille Miller [00:08:29]:
Yeah. So it was all a part of also of my upbringing, right? Like, we don’t divorce, right? You just don’t do it. My parents didn’t do it. But my mother also didn’t work, right? So it, it, it was like holding it all together and it looks so good and I achieved it all and I can keep going. And the idea was, well, I’ll wait till my kids are older, right? I’m not gonna ruin everything now. And what actually happened, the cr— the breaking points of it, right? So there’s always these little cracks in the foundation that keep happening and keep happening. And there was a couple cracks. A couple cracks started happening about 10 years ago. Exactly.
Amy Stone [00:09:17]:
Tell us, if you’re okay to share, tell us what a few of the cracks are. And the reason I ask these questions is not to dig into your history. But it matters. For the person listening who’s at home thinking about their own life, these are the things that they might see themselves in.
Camille Miller [00:09:34]:
Yeah. So my husband became a caregiver for his parents. My husband at the time became a caregiver for his parents and he started being gone a lot, right? Because they, they lived further away and he was not working, right? So then I really had it all, you know, all on my shoulders, right? It was, you know, whatever I had with the kids. And, and that was kind of like, it was also kind of the, uh, this is kind of nice.
Amy Stone [00:10:05]:
I was gonna ask, I was like, so when he was gone, did you miss him?
Camille Miller [00:10:09]:
Like, No. And the kids never asked for him, which was also a clue. But, uh, it was, it was, that was part of it, right? It was, um, the, um, my job had, was coming to an end because I was, um, hired as the CEO, uh, because we got a multimillion dollar a grant and that grant was ending and I was trying to hold on to see if we can find the funding. And it was very clear to me that this was going to be the end. But I also am very spiritual. So I found like the universe is pushing me to do something else. And I was kind of searching for what is next for me. I think I was 48 at the time and I was like, what is next? What is next? Like, I love nonprofit work. I loved my job. I loved everything about it. Um, but I felt like I was making an impact in the world and all of a sudden money was no longer my motivator. And that changed everything when I just wanted to make an impact in the world. My husband at the time did not like that decision.
Amy Stone [00:11:21]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:11:24]:
So, and I was, yeah. And that’s kind of where I went into this entrepreneurial space and created the company that I have today. Um, and he was like, you, you just can’t do this. You just can’t do this. You can’t just decide. And I was like, why? You decided not to work. Like, you decided. Why can’t I decide? And the caveat to all of this is—
Amy Stone [00:11:44]:
Well, I’m going to pause there because that is something that when we talked about inequity of the work at home, one of the ways that shows up is in a household, one person has unilateral decision-making and the other person is in a position where they have so much pressure on them that they cannot. So your husband decided to stop working just by himself and it worked out. One of the ways I hear about this happening a lot is that, you know, one person has free time because they’re not the caregiver of the kids.
Camille Miller [00:12:15]:
Yes.
Amy Stone [00:12:15]:
So they can simply decide to go to the library by themselves where the other person, like, cannot. And I just wanted to call that out because it is a big difference in one of those sort of invisible labor kind of things. The autonomy and agency to just simply be able to make a decision about your own life cannot be underrated.
Camille Miller [00:12:38]:
Yes. Yeah. So cracks and cracks and cracks, right?
Amy Stone [00:12:42]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:12:43]:
He was, he was leaving. My job was ending. He was like, well, what are you going to do next? You have to make the money. You have to do this. And the final crack was actually, and we never fought. We didn’t have a bad marriage, but it just started to crack because it became so complacent.
Amy Stone [00:13:03]:
Mm.
Camille Miller [00:13:04]:
Like, and I was like, I need support here. I need support. Right. And I wanted to hire a cleaning lady, someone to help. And he was completely against it. He’s like, well, I’ll clean. And I was like, you don’t clean. Like, like who’s fooling who here? Right. Or start cooking dinner, you know, and he’d boil hot dogs. And I was like, this is not right. Like it wasn’t right. And I didn’t want to come off as it’s not good enough. What are we doing? But what the final, final crack actually was, and I, I, I remember the actual moment when I decided. We were actually sitting by a pool and he was coming into, I don’t know if it had happened or it was about to happen, a multimillion-dollar inheritance.
Amy Stone [00:13:47]:
Okay.
Camille Miller [00:13:49]:
Right? And I’m like, I’m going to start this entrepreneurial company. This is what I’m gonna do, my next step. This is what I want. I really don’t want to work for others anymore, the board. I just wanna try something else. And he was like, well, how are you gonna support us? And I was like, well, we just came into this multi-million dollar inheritance. We certainly have the money we need to do everything we need. And he went, that’s my money, not our money.
Amy Stone [00:14:16]:
So what’s yours is ours, but what’s mine is mine.
Camille Miller [00:14:20]:
Yeah. And he’s like, you still need to work to support us.
Amy Stone [00:14:25]:
Wow.
Camille Miller [00:14:26]:
And I was like, are you shitting me? Like, And I looked him dead in the eyes and said, you really need to change your mind about that. Um, and I remember in that moment calling my girlfriend. I went, I’m gonna file for divorce. Like, it was just— it— like, I was still sitting in the same chair. He jumped in the pool and I went, I’m filing for divorce. Like, it was—
Amy Stone [00:14:50]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:14:51]:
It was just like, that was the crack. And, um, We had a conversation after that and he just could not see his way around it. And he’s like, this is mine. Like, this is— and I was like, we have kids to get through college and we’re like, we have all of this thing. And I was like, and for years you haven’t worked. Like, how about it’s my turn to try something? I’m not even asking you to work. I’m asking you just to help out a little bit.
Amy Stone [00:15:20]:
So the thing that popped in—
Camille Miller [00:15:22]:
And he was like, no.
Amy Stone [00:15:24]:
He was like, no. The thing that popped into my mind about that, I have 2 things. The very stereotypical story of where one person does a— it’s really the old-fashioned story about med school. One person is going through med school and the other person supports the family and that.
Amy Stone [00:15:40]:
Yes.
Amy Stone [00:15:41]:
And then the pressure of that process breaks the marriage. And it’s like, but I was there for you. Tale as old as time. I don’t know if it still happens, though, to be honest.
Amy Stone [00:15:52]:
The other thing—
Camille Miller [00:15:53]:
I’m sure it does.
Amy Stone [00:15:54]:
The other thing that came into mind is in my own family, I am particular about produce. And it’s just me. Like, I understand that I’m particular about produce. So I’ve tried to, like, outsource to, like, online shoppers or assistants or, you know, my husband, like, doing the shopping. It doesn’t— it’s not helpful because I’m like, this is not— I remember getting an online shopping order with this teeny tiny little onion when I had asked for a large onion. And I was like, this is not a large onion. We disagree on what a large onion is. Or I was like, you have to check with berries. It’s like, no, you have to check that they’re not all gross inside. And it’s not even— and so the Marriage advice is always to like parse out the labor and do it.
Camille Miller [00:16:48]:
Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:16:48]:
But I push back and I’m like, sometimes that is just more work. If I send you to the grocery store for strawberries and you bring home moldy strawberries, that saves me no time. And because I just have to go back or send you back or whatever. So those were the 2 things that popped up in my mind as you did that. So I appreciate you sharing those actual cracks and also the story of the straw that broke the camel’s back and how you were not— sitting at home at the kitchen table, you were poolside, and you were like, that’s it, done calling the lawyer. So beliefs, we’re gonna talk about ideas and beliefs, ’cause part of this story, and you’ve already talked a little bit about it in terms of concept of beliefs about marriage, but ideas and beliefs about success. So let’s talk a little bit about how you remember defining your success way before this happened, in your like 20s.
Camille Miller [00:17:42]:
Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:17:43]:
Like in your 20s and 30s, what did you think success was gonna be?
Camille Miller [00:17:48]:
Yeah. So I feel like times have definitely changed, right? In the ’80s when I grew up, right? And through going to college, I graduated college in ’89. Greed was all the things, right?
Amy Stone [00:18:01]:
Oh yeah.
Camille Miller [00:18:01]:
That’s when jeans got designer names and cars and, right? And that’s, so that was what I grew up in seeing, right? It was a very ego centered time and very showy time. Um, so that was the time of yuppies and Gordon Gekko, Greed is Good.
Amy Stone [00:18:26]:
Uh, what was the book? Bonfire of the Vanities, Masters of the Universe. That’s also about the ’80s in the Northeast.
Camille Miller [00:18:31]:
Also. Yeah. Yeah. So like everybody else, I did not grow up in a showy family. I did grow up in a very well-to-do family, but I didn’t actually know it. That’s how we didn’t, like, it was so like, we just grew up. Everyone was saying that I had to get work when I was 14. Like, I didn’t know it until I was old enough to go, wait a minute.
Amy Stone [00:18:53]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:18:53]:
And yeah, and I remember having a conversation with my dad about it and he’s like, I’m rich. You’re not.
Amy Stone [00:19:00]:
Right.
Camille Miller [00:19:01]:
He goes, but he’s like, but we don’t need to live like, and he, that’s who he told me the difference between old money and new money. Right. Um, like, The, there’s a book like The Millionaire Down the Street, something like that. Right. Um, but when I started making money for my 25th birthday, I bought myself a Porsche.
Amy Stone [00:19:22]:
Oh, very nice.
Camille Miller [00:19:24]:
I, I should, I should say that I love cars.
Amy Stone [00:19:27]:
Okay.
Camille Miller [00:19:28]:
I don’t actually do all of the other stuff like jewelry and stuff like that. Cars. Like I love cars. I bought myself a Porsche. Um, and that was big. Um, that man I married made me sell that car.
Amy Stone [00:19:42]:
Hmm.
Camille Miller [00:19:43]:
Right? Because he’s like, we don’t do status symbols. And like an idiot 20-year-old, I’m like, okay. It was so stupid. But yeah, like the whole thing, like looking back, I’m like, because I was also taught that a man will save you, a man will help you with the money, a man will do all of this. That was the household I grew up in.
Amy Stone [00:20:06]:
Okay, so that was being used up.
Camille Miller [00:20:07]:
And my father did that for our family. Like, a bill never came to the house. My mother had no idea how things worked, right? But I wanted to make sure that wasn’t me, right? So it was kind of like this conflict that was happening, right? But women also weren’t educated, but I got educated and I wanted a job and I like, but I also wanted kids. I wanted to be a mom. Like, it was all of this, like, How do I balance it all and do it all alone? Because that’s how it’s done. A strong woman does it all alone, right? So success to me was getting all of those things, and I had it. The marriage, the nice house, the great job, the beautiful kid. Like, I had it. But boy, that wasn’t really worth it in the end.
Amy Stone [00:20:52]:
So when you look back, this is a ridiculous question because, like, you can’t— we can’t revise the past, right? But hypothetically speaking, in the movie of your life that doesn’t exist, If your partner had been different and he had supported the housekeeping and bringing in help and doing all of those things, what kind of difference do you think that would have made in your satisfaction in the situation that you were in?
Camille Miller [00:21:22]:
Huge. I think that would have been huge. And it was probably what I should have looked for, but I didn’t know it. I can look back and I, and I have those conversations with my kids now because they lived through it. Like, you saw what happened to me, right? Watch for it to happen in your own relationships because I was a bad model and this is what happened. So I’m really close to my 3 kids now.
Amy Stone [00:21:52]:
And when you say that, is it, is it like, look at the behavior of the person and make sure it’s not in disagreement?
Camille Miller [00:21:59]:
Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:21:59]:
Make sure you’re not projecting your own interviews onto the reality. Is that the conversation you’re having with your son? Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:22:06]:
And, and it’s also like, especially my oldest who really is a lot like me. And I keep saying, you know, you’re a lot like me, right? Like, watch what you’re doing. Who just married. And, you know, uh, you know, when they got engaged, I was like, look at the pattern I have.
Amy Stone [00:22:22]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:22:23]:
Look at the pattern you have. You can make your own decisions, but you see the similarity here, right?
Amy Stone [00:22:29]:
Like, do you see— So did you guys do any therapy?
Camille Miller [00:22:33]:
Uh, I did.
Amy Stone [00:22:34]:
Okay. Did you, did the words like overperforming partner ever come up? Like, did you, were you aware of that in, in the, in between the two of you?
Camille Miller [00:22:43]:
Um, no. Like, now I see things so differently because when, when this all fell apart, right? And when I decided to kind of reinvent myself, like the first thing I wanted to do was date. And then I realized very quickly, ’cause a girlfriend pointed out, you know, you’re dating the exact same type.
Amy Stone [00:23:02]:
Oh, you were repeating.
Camille Miller [00:23:03]:
And I stopped. I took myself off the market. I never went back, by the way. But—
Amy Stone [00:23:08]:
That’s one of the funny things. It’s like people—
Camille Miller [00:23:11]:
‘Cause I did the inner work and started to love myself and understand like my piece of it all and who I was. And it’s really interesting ’cause my kids who I had full-time were like, you aren’t the mother that raised us. Like, you aren’t the same mother. Like, I don’t even know where she is. Like, I am so different and so calm and so like, it’s all gonna work out and everything’s great and how can I support you? Like, and I was like, yeah, ’cause I was in my masculine energy trying to survive and protect you in a way.
Amy Stone [00:23:43]:
Um, so I wanna give you some other words and see if you think they match that show up just in— I’m not like, like I’m not a Yeah. Therapist or anything like that, but sometimes the words that will come up in a partnership is that one partner will be underperforming and another partner will be overperforming. And what’s interesting in that is that the overperformer doesn’t always see that they’re overperforming until they can’t keep up.
Camille Miller [00:24:09]:
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that’s exactly what happened.
Amy Stone [00:24:13]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:24:13]:
I broke.
Amy Stone [00:24:14]:
You broke. And were you— are you a high performer in— would you say that you were a high performer in all other parts of it, or some other, at least some other parts of your life, like you were excelling? You were excelling at work, you excelled at school.
Camille Miller [00:24:23]:
Unbelievable.
Amy Stone [00:24:24]:
Seeking out the challenges.
Camille Miller [00:24:26]:
Yeah. And which I see now is what they call like the oldest daughter syndrome. Right.
Amy Stone [00:24:32]:
Right.
Camille Miller [00:24:33]:
Like, I just took care of everything. I came from an Italian family. Like, I, yeah, like overperformed, which was a trauma response. But I know that now because I’ve done all of the work.
Amy Stone [00:24:45]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:24:45]:
Right. And now I’m kind of like, How can I support you? You know, it’s a very, I’m such a different person and success, which was your original question, is defined so differently for me now. Yeah, we’re going to come back to that. It’s not the money, it’s not the stuff. It’s, it’s, you know, downsizing, you know, my next move. I’ve moved 3 times since I divorced and every time it was, you know, for a new phase of life. Like I had a beautiful home when I divorced because I had the 3 kids with me and It was great. And it was like a walkable town and all of this stuff, you know, so they, they had everything they needed when they went to college. I moved to a different place, but was still big enough in case they needed to come home. You know, now my kids all support themselves and I’m, I’ve just become literally an empty nester like 45 days ago. And I’m like, okay, now it’s time to build the life. that I want. But, you know, and now I’m going, you know, to the beach.
Amy Stone [00:25:48]:
It is so interesting because you’re a teeny tiny bit older than I am. One of the— I don’t think that anybody that I remember, I don’t think that any of the adults that I saw growing up talked about the phase of your life that is, you know, building for yourself after your kids get older, because it was sort of this like mythical retirement thing. that was supposed to happen. So one of the things— the reason I was asking about the different things there is that I just want to give a little bit of acknowledgement and gravitas to the fact that it is very hard to see these patterns when you’re living them. It’s very easy to judge people in this and be like, how could you not know you were repeating?
Camille Miller [00:26:31]:
Oh yeah.
Amy Stone [00:26:31]:
But I really find that in my own lived experience and conversations with other people that It’s very hard to self-identify these patterns and one of the reasons is because they come from our beliefs. And you mentioned that you watched your family growing up, we all do it. You don’t know, when you’re 5, you’re not evaluating your family unless something is seriously, seriously wrong. You just think that’s the way the world is, right?
Amy Stone [00:27:01]:
Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:27:02]:
If your family is vegetarians, you think everybody is vegetarians because you’re a child and that’s all you know. And those things, those beliefs can, in my experience, be very hard to change. So you go through this straw that breaks the camel’s back, you’re tapped out, your job is ending, you want to end your marriage. Can you identify, or are you aware of a single experience or any events that really pushed you to challenge this idea of success? And move into the shift?
Camille Miller [00:27:39]:
So I think it really, as I started to work on me and who I’m becoming, like the new me after the divorce, that’s when it all just started. Like, you know, like being with my kids, like I define success now, um, which, and the definition came up from that time, like if I’m able to send my kids plane tickets to visit me anywhere in the world.
Amy Stone [00:28:10]:
That’s a good point.
Camille Miller [00:28:12]:
That’s my definition of success, right? I love to travel. I want to give my kids experiences. It was always about— we do a lot of road trips and we do a lot, the 4 of us, right? We call ourselves the Fabulous 4, right? We did everything together, um, and we’re very, very close. Now that I’m moving, we’re like, how do we do holidays? I was like, I don’t know, we’ll figure it out. Let’s see what happens. Like, I don’t know, right? Travel is very big with me. giving them experiences, right? And they don’t have to cost a lot of money. For each of my kids’ college graduation, they got to pick one place in the world to visit. And we did our last what we called Mommy and Me trips. So my kids always had Mommy and Me time ’cause all of my kids were born within 17 months of each other.
Amy Stone [00:28:59]:
Oh wow.
Camille Miller [00:29:00]:
And it’s really hard to individual— I have multiple—
Amy Stone [00:29:03]:
They have to be twins, right?
Camille Miller [00:29:04]:
Yeah, I have an older one and a younger one.
Amy Stone [00:29:07]:
Did you see the gears in my mind? Yeah, like, I’m like, yeah, it’s everybody.
Camille Miller [00:29:12]:
My oldest was 6 months old and I got pregnant with twins.
Amy Stone [00:29:14]:
Okay. All right.
Camille Miller [00:29:16]:
And it was, um, it was so hard. So hard. Um, but I needed to give them individual time because they needed me. So we had mommy and me time and mommy and me days. And like, and if they were really struggling, they’d be like, I need a mommy day. Okay. And that’s— so we still have Mommy and me times. It’s really interesting. Um, and they’re all— they’re grown adults now. Um, but when they graduated college, that was like the last trip I’m paying for. Like, that is their gift. Like, pick a place in the world that you’d like to go and explore with me.
Amy Stone [00:29:52]:
Beautiful. So yeah, you said that this happened— this began after the divorce when you were working on yourself. I want to sort of zoom in on that a teeny tiny bit.
Camille Miller [00:30:03]:
Okay.
Amy Stone [00:30:05]:
Do you think it was the being in the new situation, being actually removed from your life partner? Was it the coaching or therapy or things you were doing? Was it that you didn’t have the other job? What did working on yourself look like? And what do you think looking back Is sort of where you began to redefine who you were going to be, because you could have just stayed in that same self-identity.
Camille Miller [00:30:38]:
Yeah, well, I think that was part of the break, was the new chapter.
Amy Stone [00:30:43]:
Okay.
Camille Miller [00:30:43]:
Right. And trying to figure out, well, what does the new me look like? Right. And doing all of that inner work, which is an ongoing process, by the way. I’m still blossoming and learning and being right. And as my kids grow now, I’m blossoming and being someone in This last chapter is an empty nester, which is new to me.
Amy Stone [00:31:01]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:31:02]:
Right?
Amy Stone [00:31:03]:
I’m wondering, because like you— there was a piece of this that’s like you began to see when your husband was gone what life was like without him. And so the question is like, is part of this like— because it’s hard to imagine who, when we’re in a partnership or we’re parenting kids and that’s all-encompassing, it’s hard to imagine what life will be like Any other way because it takes out the— so I was— that’s really kind of where the question was, like, how much of this was impacted by the actual separation gave you space to be like, oh gosh, now that he’s not here, I don’t have to be like this?
Camille Miller [00:31:39]:
It, it took a lot of learning. Um, but a, a good lesson for me too was the experience itself. So like, I was always told you stay together for the kids, right? I had to come to the conclusion like, All right, so maybe staying together for the kids is actually bad for the kids, right? So I had to kind of— and what does this look like? Um, so it was definitely financially straining.
Amy Stone [00:32:05]:
Okay.
Camille Miller [00:32:06]:
It was really hard. I didn’t get any of that inheritance, and neither did my kids. And, and he became very vicious, which was very hard because we didn’t have that type of relationship. Um, it was all of a sudden like Who’s this man I’ve been married to for 22 years? This is so weird. And the kids were like, that’s who he’s always been, mom. You just didn’t see it. And that to me, and stories still come out today and I’m like, how did I miss this? How did I not see this? Because I was in survival mode.
Amy Stone [00:32:39]:
Yeah. And you were protecting yourself.
Camille Miller [00:32:40]:
I was trying to survive. Um, so, um, you know, I made a decision with myself never to say a bad word about him to my kids. ever, regardless of what was going on. You know, I kept it to me. He shared a little more than I think is appropriate for kids, and they were young at the time. Um, but I never commented, never said a bad word, and I chose that. And I went from this protective place to my kids are growing older and they’re going to need to have a relationship with him because the relationship wasn’t— it’s a little— it was a little strained. Now it’s there’s no relationship. But, um, and I had to say, you have to go do this on your terms and you decide what this looks like. That is so hard for a protective mom. But it was also, you know, they could come home and they can ask questions and they can talk openly without judgment. That was really, really hard to like just allow them to be adults and choose If they wanted to see him, not see them, how that worked, um, their relationship today, you know. And at one time he called— we have, we have no— we don’t talk at all. Um, and everything came, became about money and money and money and money and money. And that was unbelievable because I didn’t realize how much my brain had changed around money from how I was brought up. to marrying him and all these subconscious beliefs and fears and everything he actually created without me realizing it.
Amy Stone [00:34:22]:
Hmm, that is really interesting. Yeah, one of the things that—
Camille Miller [00:34:26]:
Very interesting.
Amy Stone [00:34:27]:
That is, um, popping up in my mind as you talk about this is the deeply ingrained message of obligation and duty, or if you are in a faith-based family, the covenant, right? The agreement that you’re not a good person if you leave. And the work it takes to deconstruct that and allow yourself to see that the family that you’re trying to protect or the person you’re trying to be could really be better off without the marriage construct.
Camille Miller [00:35:02]:
It was interesting.
Amy Stone [00:35:04]:
Yeah. And it’s a very It’s a very multifactorial conversation because, yeah, um, it’s not gonna be the same for any 2 people.
Camille Miller [00:35:11]:
Yeah. And thankfully my kids were a little older. My twins, I think, were 14 and my oldest was 16. Um, because I had to say, you need to make these decisions. So, and it was a little bit different in a, in a divorce, especially in New Jersey, because after 14, kids have choices. Which was actually— I didn’t know it, go into it with that intention. That’s what I found out, right?
Amy Stone [00:35:36]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:35:37]:
So, um, you know, at first he’s like, I don’t even want the kids. And I was like, great, until he learned that child support had something to do with it. And he was like, forget it, I’ll take the— and then he fought for 50%, which in New Jersey is almost always given regardless of the circumstance. Um, so he didn’t have to pay child support.
Amy Stone [00:35:58]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:35:58]:
So the whole thing was to make sure that I got no money. The, uh, his kids, like, he wanted to see us suffer, which was something that I really didn’t want to discuss with the kids. But I’m like, here’s what we got, let’s figure it out, you know. Um, and I had a lot less income because I went into entrepreneurship, right? But it also allowed me to be with my kids, which was a choice.
Amy Stone [00:36:23]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:36:23]:
Um, and my kids Chose not to see him. But I will say that first, he didn’t see the kids at all for the first few months, but then he chose. Then I remember the call when he’s like, I’m ready now. And I’m like, that’s not how parenting works.
Amy Stone [00:36:39]:
Like, right?
Camille Miller [00:36:40]:
But okay. And that first weekend where he took the kids, like, I had never been without kids ever, ever. And I was like, this is kind of cool. And I would clean the house and cook for myself.
Amy Stone [00:36:55]:
You can get in trouble for saying stuff like that online. People come for you. I don’t care. Michelle Obama, in her interview with Jon Stewart, was like, oh, when the kids moved out, I was like, go live your life. And people came for her. They’re like, no, you should— and I was just like, wow, it is still— I mean, she’s armored up, so she’s fine. She doesn’t need me to defend her. But it’s like when my kids— I’m a very new empty nester, and everybody comes to you and they’re like, oh, you’re going to miss them. I’m like, I am gonna miss them. I’m also really gonna enjoy not tripping over their shoes when I walk in the front door. Oh my gosh, yeah. And I just reclaimed, you know, I had a kid home for the summer and like I had a family announcement. I was like, bring the spoons back. I don’t know where they are, but, you know, bring them back. All right, so those are all— that sounds like it’s a really big shift. So this is a lot that you change kind of all at the same time. You leave a marriage. which you describe as being a solid conflict, low-conflict marriage, but turns into a high-conflict divorce. You walk away from the security and the identity of yourself as an employed person, a married person, and you find yourself rebuilding your life financially, professionally, and personally. All of this as a single mom. Do I have that right?
Camille Miller [00:38:15]:
Yeah, that’s it.
Amy Stone [00:38:16]:
Were you aware at the time that all this was happening? Or is when you look back, you’re like, oh my gosh.
Camille Miller [00:38:22]:
Yeah, it’s more like— and I was still in school, so it’s more like other people see it, but I don’t really see it because that was just what was happening.
Amy Stone [00:38:31]:
Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:38:32]:
All right.
Camille Miller [00:38:32]:
I was rebuilding. I was figuring me out just as much.
Amy Stone [00:38:36]:
So the thing that you said you wanted to talk about in this conversation was the decision to stop measuring your life by the external markers of success, begin trusting yourself to define success differently. So what I’ve heard so far is that It’s the self-work that helped you redefine the measures of success.
Camille Miller [00:38:56]:
Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:38:56]:
And let’s review a little bit about what the external markers were that you picked up and how you began to even realize that you were using them as a measurement against yourself. So length of marriage, employment by somebody else. House, kids? What were the things you were looking at that were your external markers?
Camille Miller [00:39:21]:
Yeah, previously it was all of it.
Amy Stone [00:39:24]:
Okay.
Camille Miller [00:39:25]:
Right?
Amy Stone [00:39:25]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:39:26]:
That’s, that’s how people check the boxes, right? I had all the things, right? I had a retirement fund. I had all—
Amy Stone [00:39:33]:
Retirement fund. Okay. Yeah. So retirement fund. What else? Vacation? Like, this is before social media, so nobody really— but what were some of the things that you were like, you were holding out as like, like, you know, was it vacations? Was it—
Camille Miller [00:39:45]:
Yeah, we had a beach house.
Amy Stone [00:39:47]:
Beach house.
Camille Miller [00:39:48]:
We had, yeah, like, we had it all.
Amy Stone [00:39:52]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:39:52]:
And I chose to give it all up to create this new life, which ended up being so much better and not all the markers. But I also don’t care about all the markers right now, right? Because it’s—
Amy Stone [00:40:06]:
when you are— I think that’s something that’s Let’s say when you were 45, so a couple of years before this happened, how important did some of these markers feel? Like how—
Camille Miller [00:40:18]:
They were so important.
Amy Stone [00:40:20]:
The beach house, the big house with the walkable street, the being seen as a successful married person.
Camille Miller [00:40:30]:
Yeah, it was all important until it wasn’t.
Amy Stone [00:40:34]:
Okay.
Camille Miller [00:40:34]:
Because at one point I was like, It was like those cracks when I just went, I’m done, I’m done. But I think that also happens in our 5th decade. Like, our— when we’re—
Amy Stone [00:40:44]:
They do call it the fuck it 50s for a reason.
Camille Miller [00:40:47]:
We’re just like, I don’t give a crap. Like, just let me figure life out. And it just became so much better. Like, not having a man in the house, just stop dating. That was like the best thing Ever. Um, like, it’s just I’ve created a life for myself and honestly for my kids, but my kids are off on their own. But I also showed them what is possible.
Amy Stone [00:41:15]:
Yeah, yeah, right.
Camille Miller [00:41:17]:
And I think the other thing, um, that was really important too, and I always said, you know, you follow your dreams. You know, they all went to college, they all graduated. Like, those are all markers for me now, right? I have 3 successful kids that are supporting themselves, you know, and, and, and we still talk, like, not every day, but a lot.
Amy Stone [00:41:44]:
No, that’s good.
Camille Miller [00:41:46]:
A lot, a lot.
Amy Stone [00:41:47]:
I interviewed a woman who, she is a Gen Xer and she has her own show, um, The Gen X Experience. Her name is Blythe Alpern, and the conversation that we had was about that she decided to stop dating and how freeing that was for her. I have no idea if she’s still in that spot of making that decision. But it’s interesting because it’s one of those things that when that went out onto the socials, a lot of people had opinions. And I was just watching it and I was like, that is so funny because that is a very personal decision that nobody else actually gets to weigh in on. And I love that the peanut gallery shows up to like to do that. All right, so—
Camille Miller [00:42:21]:
Well, I feel like we were also brought up to be so male-centered.
Amy Stone [00:42:25]:
Right. That is, yeah, the concept of decentering. We were so male-centered.
Camille Miller [00:42:28]:
Yes. And I feel like one of the reasons I married who I did is because I was really pressured hard from my parents to get married. And I was like, well, I got this one over here. I don’t really like him, but he’ll fit the bill. Like, you know, it was, you know, and, and I wanted to be a mom and get pregnant. And, and I was like, I need I need somebody to do that. Today, maybe I wouldn’t have made that same choice, but I’m older.
Amy Stone [00:42:59]:
I shouldn’t laugh, but it was just sort of like, you know, well, these shoes will work, so I’ll take them. That’s okay. So I like— that’s the reason I was laughing. I was like, well, there is definitely— once you, you know, we want to believe in like marriage and love and happy ever after. But I mean, I’ve— I mean, I’m in my 50s also, and I lived through it. I’ve seen other people do it. It is a funny thing that when people people get to their late 20s, early 30s, mid-30s, it is just like— sometimes it’s like a switch that flips. It’s like, all right, the next person comes around, that’s it, we’re getting married.
Amy Stone [00:43:37]:
Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:43:37]:
You know, and you can see it happen. It’s like, wow, you know, I’d like to believe that it’s not biology, but it looks like biology from a distance. No idea if it really is. But all right, so you say that this decision ultimately changed how you built businesses, how you made money, how you led in terms of leadership. How you understood your own identity. And that’s the reason I started this conversation by calling out like what life looked like before you made this shift.
Camille Miller [00:44:05]:
Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:44:05]:
So let’s talk about what the shift impacted, what it looks like today. What does your life look like today? This is a tough question ’cause you’re about to move, but what does your life look like today that is actually different?
Camille Miller [00:44:16]:
Everything. Everything. Like, You know, I built an entrepreneurial company, right? So that was successful. You know, my kids are off on their own, successful. I have the house where they can all come home. I drive an old car now. And my goals now are like to travel and have experiences. Which I’ve always loved, which we didn’t actually really do when I was married. And the nicest thing is I get to just decide all on my own what I feel like doing, when I feel like doing it, how I feel like doing it. I could make sense or not. It doesn’t, it doesn’t really matter. And I think that is authentic success. I’m showing up how I want to show up in the world. I don’t pretend to be somebody else.
Amy Stone [00:45:16]:
Right.
Camille Miller [00:45:16]:
I had someone on LinkedIn reach out to me the other day and they’re like, you use the word soul on your LinkedIn page. Doesn’t that stop you from getting clients? I was like, no, it actually attracts the right ones. Right. It was like, and you know, it was a white male telling me that.
Amy Stone [00:45:34]:
You were like, maybe it doesn’t attract you, sir.
Camille Miller [00:45:38]:
Yeah. Like, and it shouldn’t. Right. So, Yeah. So it’s interesting. And where I’ve been a strategist my whole life, now I’m seeing my work kind of going around identity of founders and entrepreneurs and who are they becoming and how do I help them become it and see it and be it, you know, from the inside and their subconscious beliefs. Because I went through it, right? We attract who we are. So I went through it and I’m kind of out this other side and I love myself. I love my life. I get to go. Like, actually buying this house was just on a whim. And buying the last house, I just was visiting a friend in July and was like, huh, I think I’ll buy— this one’s available. I think I’ll just go buy it. And literally on the way home, I called all my kids and I was like, hey, I just bought a house in Delaware.
Amy Stone [00:46:34]:
And they’re like, what are you doing? So that is— I love all Well, a lot of the pieces of that. I will say, it’s not the topic of conversation, LinkedIn DMs are a strange part of the online experience. It is just its own weird little thing. Okay, so a part of your story is that you shifted from being an employee in the nonprofit world to going out and shifting, starting your own business, becoming an entrepreneur.
Amy Stone [00:47:04]:
Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:47:06]:
And so one of the reasons people come on the show is to talk about their businesses, which is one of the things we do. Other than talking about the business and what you do today and spreading the word about that, what is the reason behind sharing this personal story about your own life? What do you hope that people in the audience will learn or take away from hearing your story today?
Camille Miller [00:47:26]:
Well, you know, if there’s one woman in a ridiculous marriage doing it all right, having the mental load, that’s the hardest part of working moms is the mental load of handling it all. Um, maybe they have that aha moment, right? When I was in it, I didn’t see it. And it’s really interesting now when I think that we were vacationing at a shore house that I had to pack and I had to do the laundry and cook all the meat. I was like, this wasn’t a vacation. None of this was a vacation for me.
Amy Stone [00:47:58]:
Right. It’s just doing the work in a different location. Yes.
Camille Miller [00:48:01]:
And so much harder.
Amy Stone [00:48:03]:
Right.
Camille Miller [00:48:04]:
And, uh, and I was like, that’s the only way we vacationed. Pretty much the whole time.
Amy Stone [00:48:08]:
Yeah. And I think so many people experience that. Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:48:12]:
Oh my God. I remember when I was cooking dinner and my husband used to go take a bike ride and I’d be like, where the hell are you? He’s like, oh, I took a bike ride. It’s a beautiful sunset. I was like, I wouldn’t know. I’ve never seen it. Right. Like, it’s, it’s just this, but I didn’t really know it till I was out of it.
Amy Stone [00:48:27]:
Right. And everybody’s gotta eat, right? Like there’s, there’s the weight of, you’re so overwhelmed with Like, everybody’s got to eat. The kids are little. The kids cannot make it themselves. Like, kids need adults around them.
Camille Miller [00:48:38]:
It’s responsibility. And I’ve shed that.
Amy Stone [00:48:41]:
With vacations.
Camille Miller [00:48:43]:
Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:48:43]:
Like, I used to know people and they loved it and they would travel for the winter holidays. And I did it one time. I took the kids and I shipped the gifts and I tried to do like Santa and all these things somewhere else. And at the end I was like, no, no, never doing it again. Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:48:59]:
Like, my husband was just as surprised as the kids when they opened gifts.
Amy Stone [00:49:03]:
That is the— that is— that is it.
Amy Stone [00:49:05]:
Right?
Camille Miller [00:49:06]:
And there were years that I didn’t get any gifts because he didn’t think about it.
Amy Stone [00:49:09]:
Yeah, that’s so—
Amy Stone [00:49:10]:
I’m sorry.
Camille Miller [00:49:10]:
And I was like, are you shitting me? And it’s the car and it’s the food and we’re Italian, so we do Christmas Eve. Like, it was like all of it. And I, and I have to say, uh, well, I stopped doing Christmas Day when I divorced. Oh my God, was that the best? Because I used to do Christmas Eve and the whole thing. And when I divorced, I was like, we’re not doing this big— because my kids were teenagers at this point.
Amy Stone [00:49:35]:
Right.
Camille Miller [00:49:35]:
Right. And I was like, I’m not doing it. I was like, how about Christmas Day? You go spend it with your dad. And that was the thing. We woke up on Christmas Day and we opened all the gifts and I had Christmas breakfast and I never got out of my pajamas because I used to have Christmas dinner with the whole family. And I called my family and I’m like, I’m just not doing it anymore because we did Christmas Eve together.
Amy Stone [00:49:56]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:49:56]:
I was like, I don’t need it to be a 2-day thing. I just want a 1-day thing. And still to this day, I will not show up on Christmas Day, even though my kids— well, my kids come down sometimes for Christmas Eve. Now it’s a little, you know, because they’re all in different places of the world. Um, but sometimes I’ll call my baby sister, who’s one of my besties, and I’ll be like, want to go for a hike? Because we just finished doing Christmas Eve dinner.
Amy Stone [00:50:19]:
Right.
Camille Miller [00:50:19]:
And I was like, let’s go for a hike. Let’s, like, let’s not show up.
Amy Stone [00:50:23]:
Let’s—
Camille Miller [00:50:24]:
and that’s become the thing of, wow, Christmas Day. Like, I stay in my pajamas. It’s great.
Amy Stone [00:50:30]:
That is actually—
Amy Stone [00:50:31]:
that is a really clear example of making a decision for yourself.
Camille Miller [00:50:37]:
Yep.
Amy Stone [00:50:37]:
Implementing it, defining what will make you happy, and creating a— I mean, like, it’s a very simple thing. It’s like, I just am— I’m not— I’ve decided I’ve fulfilled my obligation here. This is what I’m available for. And, and then loving it, you know, because sometimes, sometimes it feels like when there’s like anger and stuff involved, like sometimes, like, well, maybe I’m just speaking for myself. My first round of that is like the, like, well, I’m not doing this for you. And it takes me a little while to be like, this is what, this is what I want for myself, which is usually a lot less venomous.
Amy Stone [00:51:09]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:51:10]:
My thing is responsibility. Like, if I’m responsible for one more thing, I don’t want it. And this goes even with friends. Like, I’m not taking responsibility to figure things out. Like, to— like, I’m not doing anymore because I used to do it all. I brought people together. I did the community. I did like, let’s do this, let’s do that. I have told a few friends, hey, I’m moving to Delaware, who wants to come? And I have 3 of them coming. And I was like, let me know when you get here.
Amy Stone [00:51:39]:
Let me know. All right, very— so today you are an entrepreneur, a business strategist, an author, and founder of what is is called the Soul Professional Movement, which is a global initiative redefining success through purpose, authenticity, and conscious leadership.
Amy Stone [00:51:58]:
Love that.
Amy Stone [00:51:59]:
You have a special offer for the people in the audience, whether they’re listening on a podcast player or watching on YouTube. It’s a free workbook, a guide on how to become a soul-led business owner and learn to lead your life with purpose. People can collect that at your website, Which I’m gonna say it out loud, but it’s also in the audio show notes, the YouTube description, and for all the people who subscribe to the Imperfect Adulting email community, it comes right into your email box. They can find that at soulprofessional.com. Camille, I wanna thank you for that generous offer for the people in the audience.
Camille Miller [00:52:36]:
Yeah, you are welcome. I hope they use it.
Amy Stone [00:52:38]:
Yeah, no, I hope so too. Okay, so are you ready to wrap this up with the final 2 questions?
Camille Miller [00:52:44]:
Yes.
Amy Stone [00:52:44]:
All right. Don’t be stressed. These are easy peasy. They used to be different every single time, but I now do the same questions over and over. I call this Show and Tell, this segment, and I ask my guests to share a book, a podcast, a show, a movie, something they’ve done that’s entertainment or information-based that they enjoyed that they would like to share with other people. And you get bonus points from me, a gold star, if what you refer— recommend is by another woman. Just because I like to support other women.
Camille Miller [00:53:11]:
Yes. Um, I will recommend a podcast, Mayim Bialik.
Amy Stone [00:53:17]:
Okay.
Camille Miller [00:53:18]:
Yeah. Do we all know who she is from Big Bang Theory?
Amy Stone [00:53:20]:
And Blossom before that.
Camille Miller [00:53:22]:
And Blossom before that. Correct. She is an actual neuroscientist, but she’s very spiritually grounded and her shows are freaking amazing. It’s the only thing I actually listen to, like, every consecutively, that and the Telepathy Tapes.
Amy Stone [00:53:36]:
Okay.
Camille Miller [00:53:36]:
Also a woman, right? Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:53:38]:
All right.
Camille Miller [00:53:39]:
Those are my 2 favorites.
Amy Stone [00:53:40]:
Mayim Bialik and the telephony, telephony tapes?
Camille Miller [00:53:45]:
Telepathy.
Amy Stone [00:53:45]:
Telepathy tapes. All right. Very cool. Very, very cool. Next one. I call this final section unsupervised online shopping, inspired by the many stories of my friends doing silly things online over the years. What is the most recent thing that you have bought online? You’re moving, so you might not really be shopping. You might be shedding. stuff, but what’s something you bought online recently?
Camille Miller [00:54:10]:
Um, I’m trying to think of— I just recently— so on Monday I sent, um, I just had a kid move to Brooklyn.
Amy Stone [00:54:18]:
Okay.
Camille Miller [00:54:18]:
And like paying their bills for the first time, so I sent them a little care package of like fun foods and—
Amy Stone [00:54:25]:
Oh, okay. Like, so like a fun, fun package, not like, not like utility, utilitarian things?
Camille Miller [00:54:31]:
No, it was like, you know, Candy and junk food and—
Amy Stone [00:54:36]:
Oh, like a good old-fashioned—
Camille Miller [00:54:38]:
And coconut water, because I know they’re out drinking. I was like, here, this will help you hydrate.
Amy Stone [00:54:43]:
Because I pack the— I pack my kids like the— when they go to school, they get like the first aid kit for the dorm room.
Camille Miller [00:54:51]:
Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:54:51]:
And it’s like Tylenol and aspirin and Band-Aids. And also like, it’s like Liquid IV, you know?
Camille Miller [00:54:58]:
Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:54:58]:
Please take care of yourself.
Amy Stone [00:54:59]:
Yeah. Vitamins.
Camille Miller [00:55:00]:
I’m sure next week after I move though, I’ll be buying things for the home.
Amy Stone [00:55:03]:
Yeah.
Camille Miller [00:55:03]:
I bought a lot of packing materials, my packing tape, my like packing Saran Wrap stuff, you know, but I’m trying not to purchase until I get there.
Amy Stone [00:55:15]:
I think that that makes sense.
Camille Miller [00:55:16]:
Otherwise I’m just moving it. Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:55:17]:
All right.
Amy Stone [00:55:21]:
That’s it. Camille Miller, thank you very much for being a wonderful guest today on The Art of Imperfect Adulting.
Camille Miller [00:55:27]:
Thank you for having me, Amy. It was a great show. Great conversation. Thanks.
Amy Stone [00:55:32]:
Thank you for joining me today. I hope you enjoyed the show. Before I go, I want to encourage you to become a bigger part of the conversation. Please subscribe wherever you’re listening or watching the show. That helps my stats. A request from the bottom of my indie creator heart is to please tell your friends about the show. That is the real way new people discover it. If you feel motivated, I would love it if you rated the show or wrote a review on whatever platform you’re listening to it on.
Amy Stone [00:56:02]:
Yes, please.
Amy Stone [00:56:02]:
Please be sure to head over to imperfectadulting.com and sign up for the email community. I call this the village. You’ll get some free stuff right away, and you’ll begin to get the weekly emails that I send. This includes the links for special offers from any guests on the show and cool stuff I put together for the community. There’s a lot more going on than just this show, and the only way you’ll know about it is to sign up. The only way to find out is to get the emails. Plus, you’re busy. You don’t have time or desire to follow every single tidbit on social media, and you don’t have to because I’m happy to send it to you. If you have a story you’d like to share with the audience, I have an open application for guests. Guess where you’ll find it? That’s right, on the website and in the emails. And that’s a wrap for this episode. Until next time, remember that the journey is The journey is the destination. Ralph Waldo Emerson said that, not me. Well, until just now. I did just say it. But what I want you to hear today is that if your adulting journey isn’t going the way you expected, that just may not mean you’re lost. It may mean that you’re just on your way. And now the fine print. The Art of Imperfect Adulting podcast and streaming video show is a copyrighted work created and produced by Amy Stone and Amy Says So. The music All music was written and produced by Todd Thompson at Dharma Bomb Studios. All rights are reserved. Anything expressed on this show is offered as entertainment, and the views of the guests may not always represent the ideas and viewpoints of the host. That’s me. Amy Stone does not intend to hold myself— herself out to provide professional advice or recommendations of any kind. In the end, you and you alone need to make those kinds of decisions. based on your personal and individual situation, needs, circumstances, and comfort level. Yeah, it’s a little weird for me to talk about myself in the third person, but you get the idea. This is Amy Stone, signing off.