The loss was coming. Lesley Jones could feel it with every drink, every calculated moment of planning her alcohol consumption around work presentations and family obligations. On the outside, her life looked polished: a marriage that had lasted since seventh grade, multiple degrees, marathon finishes, three children, and a successful career. But inside, shame was eating away at the foundation of everything she’d built. The dice she kept rolling with every drink would eventually come up snake eyes, and she knew it.
In January 2015, Jones made a decision that would redefine not just her relationship with alcohol, but her entire understanding of what it means to hit rock bottom. She got sober before losing her job, before a DUI, before her marriage crumbled, before any of the external markers that society associates with having a serious drinking problem. Nearly 11 years later, her story challenges one of the most persistent and damaging myths about sobriety: that you have to lose everything before you can justify quitting.
Jones’s experience illuminates a critical truth about problematic drinking that often goes unacknowledged. The mental preoccupation, the internal shame, and the constant negotiation with yourself about when, where, and how much you’ll drink can be just as destructive as any external consequence. Her decision to pursue what she calls “proactive sobriety” offers a roadmap for anyone who suspects their relationship with alcohol might be unhealthy, even if their life still looks successful from the outside.
The Tyranny of the Rock Bottom Narrative
When most people think about hitting rock bottom with alcohol, they picture dramatic, life-altering losses. Lost jobs. Destroyed marriages. Legal consequences. Custody battles. These are the stories that get told in movies and meetings, the cautionary tales that seem to validate the severity of the problem.
“When I think societally, the word rock bottom means someone who has lost a lot,” Jones said. “They have lost a job, they have, because of their drinking or their drug use or whatever their vices, they have lost a marriage, they have lost custody of their children, they have a DUI. Those are all things that you can quantify and that obviously are life changing things.”
But this narrative creates a dangerous threshold. It suggests that until you’ve experienced catastrophic external consequences, your problem isn’t serious enough to address. It keeps people drinking because they can always point to what they haven’t lost yet as evidence that they don’t really have a problem.
Jones struggled with this misconception herself. “I think it’s why a lot of people keep drinking when they probably know they need to stop drinking,” she said. She recognized the pattern early in her own journey: “I am a very competitive person. I don’t like losing. And I knew towards the end of my drinking that I hadn’t lost anything, but I knew the losing was coming.”
The rock bottom myth also obscures a more insidious truth: you can lose everything that matters internally long before you lose anything externally. Jones articulated this with striking clarity: “Even though I’ve not lost anything, and everybody may have looked at my life, I’ve got a husband who I’ve dated since seventh grade, a great job, I have several degrees, I ran marathons, I have three children, I had lost nothing inside. I had lost so much. I had so much shame around my drinking.”
The Hidden Labor of Problematic Drinking
One of the most revealing aspects of Jones’s story is her description of what she calls “food noise” around alcohol. This concept, borrowed from discussions about dieting and disordered eating, describes the constant mental chatter and planning that dominated her thoughts.
“That was the thing for me with alcohol, was I had food noise with alcohol,” Jones explained. “Like, everything in my day was structured around when I can drink, how much can I drink, do I have an important call with Amy that morning? Then I better not drink. And it was so exhausting, but that’s so similar to a lot of other people that struggle with disordered eating or food and just planning.”
This mental labor is invisible to everyone else. Outwardly, Jones was running marathons, succeeding at work, and raising three children. But internally, she was engaged in a constant negotiation with herself about alcohol consumption, calculating and recalculating what she could get away with while still maintaining her external responsibilities.
She described arriving at presentations having “chugged four Bud Light Ices” in the hours before, confident that no one around her had any idea. The planning extended to every aspect of her life: anticipating Monday morning meetings on Saturday afternoons, structuring her entire schedule around when she could drink and when she needed to be sober.
This hidden cognitive load represents a form of loss that doesn’t appear on any standard checklist for problematic drinking. Jones hadn’t lost her job or her marriage, but she had lost the ability to exist without constant mental negotiation. She had lost spontaneity, peace of mind, and the freedom to simply be present in her own life without calculating her next opportunity to drink.
Preventative Action Over Crisis Response
Jones’s approach to sobriety reflects a philosophy that’s more common in other areas of health but rarely applied to alcohol: preventative intervention rather than crisis management.
“I always tell people, if you had a stage zero breast cancer, would you wait until it was stage four to do something about it?” Jones said. “And most everybody would say, no, I want to quit and start treating now. And I say, well, why don’t we do that with alcohol?”
This analogy challenges the prevailing wisdom that you need to wait for severe consequences before taking action. In every other area of health and wellness, we celebrate early intervention. We praise people who change their diets before having a heart attack, who start therapy before having a breakdown, who address small problems before they become catastrophic ones.
Yet with alcohol, there’s often an implicit judgment that if you quit before you’ve “really” hit bottom, maybe you’re being dramatic. Maybe you didn’t really have a problem. Maybe you’re overreacting.
Jones faced this dynamic when seeking support. “As much as we say there isn’t a stigma around it, maybe it doesn’t. Maybe there is,” she noted. “Because you don’t feel like it’s as much of a big deal as other things. Like, I would be more comfortable going to a support group to lose weight than I was going to a support group for not drinking alcohol.”
This discomfort reflects broader societal attitudes about alcohol and self-improvement. We have normalized certain types of support-seeking while stigmatizing others, creating barriers for people who recognize they have a problem before it becomes severe enough to be undeniable to everyone around them.
The Power of Peer Support and Community
Despite her initial hesitation, Jones found that peer support was crucial to her sobriety. A friend who had already gotten sober took her to her first women’s meeting, providing both practical support and validation that her concerns were legitimate.
“The words that really stuck with me was one woman had told me, you don’t have to lose everything. It’s not yet,” Jones recalled. That simple phrase, “not yet,” reframed her entire understanding of her situation. She didn’t need to wait for catastrophic loss to justify getting help. The trajectory was clear, and she could choose to step off that path before reaching its inevitable conclusion.
In that meeting, Jones encountered women who looked nothing like her stereotypical image of someone in recovery. “One of the first women that I met in AA was a woman who was sober from age 26 to age 73, and I’m like, who is she? I’m like, how are you here?” she said. This realization helped Jones understand that recovery wasn’t just for people who had lost everything. It was also for people who were choosing not to lose anything in the first place.
The community aspect of recovery also provided accountability and perspective that individual willpower alone couldn’t sustain. Jones had tried dry January and various periods of abstinence on her own, but those attempts always ended with her returning to drinking. The structured support and ongoing connection with others who understood her experience made sustainable sobriety possible.
Life After the Decision
The internal transformation Jones experienced after getting sober was profound, even if it wasn’t immediately visible to others. “The biggest difference I noticed in my sobriety was when I got sober, I had so much less anxiety,” she said. “And I didn’t really know if the alcohol was causing my anxiety or if the anxiety was causing me to drink. I think it was a little bit of both.”
For years, Jones had used alcohol as a way to manage anxiety that dated back to high school, where she was a high achiever navigating social pressures and performance expectations. The irony was that the coping mechanism she’d chosen was actually making the problem worse.
“I remember going home one time, and I have a 15 year old that likes to ride dirt bikes,” Jones recalled. “And I was home, and it was my first summer I had gotten sober, and he was getting ready to go ride his dirt bike. And instead of freaking out and telling all the bad things that can happen because I was so anxious, I just said, have fun and be safe, and went inside. And as I went inside, I looked at my husband, and I said, did you hear what I just said? I mean, and he goes, you have changed so much.”
This anecdote illustrates how her sobriety affected not just her own experience but her relationships and parenting. The anxiety that had driven both her drinking and her helicopter parenting gradually diminished, allowing her to be more present and less reactive with her family.
Jones also noticed practical changes in her social life. Early in sobriety, she avoided certain events and situations where alcohol would be central. “I kind of just didn’t go to things,” she admitted. “I didn’t really avoid it. It was more just like, I, if I was going to go to something, I still went and I just would drink, like, a lot of Diet Coke or LaCroix or something.”
Over time, her social circles naturally shifted. Some friendships that had been built primarily around drinking faded, while deeper connections with people who supported her sobriety strengthened. This wasn’t necessarily a loss, but rather a realignment of relationships based on shared values and genuine connection rather than shared drinking habits.
Redefining Rock Bottom
Jones’s philosophy can be summed up in her own words: “I always say quit before you lose because I hate losing. So I did the quitting before I did the losing.”
This approach requires recognizing that internal experiences, the shame, the mental preoccupation, the constant negotiation, count as real consequences. They don’t need to be visible to others to be valid reasons for making a change. The awareness that you’re on a trajectory toward loss is itself a form of hitting bottom, one that’s actually more useful than waiting for external catastrophe because it allows you to act from a position of relative strength rather than desperation.
Jones challenges anyone struggling with their relationship with alcohol to consider whether they’re waiting for permission to get help, permission that will only come in the form of losing something they can’t get back. “If you don’t have a healthy relationship with alcohol and you’re listening to this and you’re like, yeah, you know, I kind of struggle with my relationship with alcohol,” she said, “then I would say that’s probably a good sign to maybe just take some time off.”
The preventative approach to sobriety requires letting go of the narrative that you need to hit a dramatic bottom to justify getting help. It means trusting your internal experience as valid and worthy of attention. And it means recognizing that choosing to quit before you lose is not weakness or overreaction; it’s wisdom.
Nearly 11 years into her sobriety, Jones continues to share her story every January 5th, consistently receiving messages from people who read her posts and recognize themselves in her experience. These are people who haven’t lost their jobs or their marriages yet, but who see the trajectory they’re on and want to change course. Her story gives them permission to take action before the losses become tangible and irreversible.
The question isn’t whether your drinking is bad enough to warrant quitting. The question is whether you’re willing to wait until it is. Jones chose not to wait, and in doing so, she kept everything that mattered most.
This article was inspired by an interview with Lesley Jones and Amy Stone on The Art of Imperfect Adulting podcast. https://imperfect-adulting.captivate.fm/listen https://www.youtube.com/@imperfectadulting
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Sobriety | Interview Transcript: Lesley Jones with Amy Stone | The Art of Imperfect Adulting | January 2026
Amy Stone [00:00:04]:
Lesley Jones, welcome to the Art of Imperfect Adulting. I’m happy you’re here. Are you ready for a fun chat this morning?
Lesley Jones [00:00:11]:
Yes. I am so excited that I get to join you this morning and really excited to talk about the subject. Yay.
Amy Stone [00:00:19]:
I start all of my questions, all of my interviews with the same question. What part of the world are you in?
Lesley Jones [00:00:27]:
I am in Dayton, Ohio, where I was born and raised.
Amy Stone [00:00:31]:
Very nice. Very nice.
Lesley Jones [00:00:34]:
Yep.
Amy Stone [00:00:34]:
Yeah. Right in the Midwest. All right, so next question. Next warm up question. Before we get to the topic of the day, this episode, we’re recording this in October, but this episode is going to drop right at the start of 2026. And so I thought it would be fun to ask you how you feel about New Year’s resolutions together. Love them. Do you hate them? Not have a strong opinion either way? What’s your feeling there?
Lesley Jones [00:00:58]:
You know, actually, I do have a strong feeling about New Year’s New Year’s resolutions. I usually try to pick a word every year to, like, last year, my word was present. But ironically, the reason that we’re talking today is about alcohol and sobriety. And how I got sober was setting a New year’s resolution on January 5th of 2015. So when this show airs, it will be about 11 years that I will have been sober. Yeah, it could.
Amy Stone [00:01:30]:
I haven’t fully set the schedule for January yet because I’m in charge and I get to do that, but it could actually drop. You and I talked about it before we hit record. This could actually come out on the anniversary. And that’s super, super synchronous, let’s say.
Lesley Jones [00:01:44]:
That would be very cool. Yes. Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:01:47]:
So the topic of the day is about making that choice to ditch alcohol and get sober. And I love the timing of this because as we just talked about, it’s coming out in January. For a lot of people, that’s just the end of a season of big indulgence. Right. Like, so October starts with Halloween, and then we go into the fall holidays and then the winter holidays. And a lot of people come out of that, you know, in January very full of cheese and mashed potatoes. And really, some people do use January as a. As a reset time, so on and so forth. And you even just shared that you used this as a reset. So are you ready to talk about this?
Lesley Jones [00:02:26]:
Absolutely. Yes.
Amy Stone [00:02:27]:
All right. Very good. So I don’t. I was thinking about this as I was putting the questions together. I don’t know that I’ve ever remember a time in my life, maybe college, but Maybe not where people weren’t talking about sober lifestyle and sober choices, but I do feel like the conversation has maybe shifted in the past couple of years. And so maybe last decade people are talking about it maybe more openly, maybe with a more of a. It’s just a choice sometimes as opposed to, you know, judgmentally. So let’s talk about how long ago, and you mentioned that it was 2015. How long ago was this? How much time has been since you made this decision?
Lesley Jones [00:03:09]:
Yeah, so it was January 5th of 2015, but. So it’ll be 11 years around when this show airs, that I’ve been sober. But this was something that I’ve been thinking about for many, many years. I’ve done many New Year’s resolutions where I was either going to do like a dry January or, you know, maybe I would not drink for 60 days or something. I’ve done a lot of experimenting with not drinking over the years, and I’ve really just. I’ve always had sort of an unhealthy relationship with alcohol ever since I was. Well, I started experimenting with it as early as seventh grade, if you can believe that. So, yeah, so I’ve. I’ve kind of always known there was some. That I was a different kind of drinker.
Amy Stone [00:03:57]:
How old were you in seventh grade?
Lesley Jones [00:03:59]:
I was 12. Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:04:00]:
Yeah, that’s the number. It’s interesting because you, you phrased that with, you know, if you can believe it, and I’m not an expert on this or anything like that, but in the, in the stories and the novels and the books that I’ve read frequently, 12 is, is a number that comes up, you know, where people start. People start experimenting at that time and I don’t know. Yes, I don’t know. So anyway, it doesn’t. To me, it’s, it’s young. It’s definitely young. And I think that anybody who’s an adult would agree that, you know, at 12 years old, we’re not making. We don’t have the experience to make maybe the best decisions we’re ever going to make. But also, I think that it’s a, it’s a, an interesting, it’s an interesting benchmark. You would have been in junior high or middle school at that point in the United States, which is absolutely an experimenting time. And I like the fact that you use the word experimenting for sobriety. I think that now one of the phrases we use, and I don’t know if it’ll stick forever, is that whole sober, curious thing. People who are, who are doing it, and it’s a nice reframe because a lot of this is social packaging about how we show up in the world and what’s acceptable in the audience of our community. And we’ll talk a little bit more about that as we go on. For your experience with, you know, your life and your community.
Lesley Jones [00:05:18]:
Right.
Amy Stone [00:05:19]:
So one of the things that appealed to me about the way you pitched this is that you shared that you didn’t hit a rock bottom to make this decision for yourself. And I want to talk a little bit more about that and I want to start with. I like to. The word rock bottom comes up when we talk about substance use, but I want to back up because I like to make sure that I don’t assume that anybody who’s listening knows what we’re talking about. So go ahead, not as an expert, but just as a person, share what the words rock bottom mean to you when you’re using them.
Lesley Jones [00:05:50]:
Sure. So when I think, well, I think there’s what it means to me personally and I think there’s what it means to maybe a larger audience and in the context of alcohol. So I think when I think societally, the word rock bottom means someone who has lost a lot. They have lost a job, they have, because of their drinking or their drug use or whatever their vices, they have lost a marriage, they have lost custody of their children, they have a dui. Those are all things that you can quantify and that obviously are life changing things. So the more down the scope you go, the more you lose and the more. And so rock bottom in that context is when you hit, when you’ve lost so much and there’s nothing else to lose, that you have no other choice but to make a change in your life. Yeah. And that’s.
Amy Stone [00:06:51]:
Right. That’s a theory or a. That’s maybe not the right word, but that’s like a concept within some communities of sobriety that.
Lesley Jones [00:06:58]:
Yes.
Amy Stone [00:06:59]:
Almost like it’s necessary.
Lesley Jones [00:07:01]:
Correct.
Amy Stone [00:07:01]:
To go through that.
Lesley Jones [00:07:02]:
Yeah. And I, And I really, I’ve. I struggle with that because I think it is a massive misconception and I think it’s why a lot of people keep drinking when they probably know they need to stop drinking. And I think that’s something I recognized really early, was that I am a very competitive person. I don’t like losing. And I knew towards the end of my drinking that I hadn’t lost anything, but I knew the losing was coming. And every time I continued to drink, I was rolling a dice. And I always tell people I really am, even though I’ve not lost anything. And everybody may have looked at my life. I’ve got a husband who I’ve had dated since seventh grade, a great job. I have several degrees. I ran marathons. I have three children. I had lost nothing inside. I had lost so much. I had so much shame around my drinking. And there’s just this misconception that you have to start losing something before you quit. And I always say quit before you lose because I hate losing. So I did the quitting before I did the losing.
Amy Stone [00:08:24]:
Yeah, I think that that’s. Yeah, and I think that that’s really interesting and I love that you brought that up because the question I had in my mind is to talk when we talk about rock bottom and we’ll talk about, like, you know, when you, you said, you know, what society thinks it is, and then what you think it is. It sounds like what you’re saying is that for you, the rock bottom was the awareness that if you kept going, there was the chance of the more and more likely chance that you were going to lose something big.
Lesley Jones [00:08:49]:
Yes.
Amy Stone [00:08:49]:
But correct me if I’m wrong, why. And talk more about why you chose that that was something that you wanted to share like that you quit without hitting the rock bottom.
Lesley Jones [00:08:59]:
Well, because I think it keeps a lot of people drinking. I think that when we compare ourselves to other people or, you know, what society thinks is an acceptable quantity of alcohol. Yeah, I wasn’t an everyday drinker. I, you know, I. We didn’t keep it in the house because I had always, had I mentioned I dated my husband, you know, on and off through seventh grade. It had always been sort of a subject of, I wouldn’t say contention, but there was an awareness there that it wasn’t something that was totally healthy and something I didn’t totally have control over, even though I had lost nothing. So I think it just keeps a lot of people that, that idea of rock bottom, of not losing something, it’s not really what I came to realize after all my experimenting over the years with not drinking is that it’s not about the quantity at all of what you are necessarily drinking. Because I could even go, you know, 30 days, 60 days, whatever, I could try to control it. I would make rules up. I’m not going to drink hard liquor. I’m only going to drink beer. I’m not going to drink wine because if I drink white wine, I drink it too fast and then I can lose control. Inevitably the rule would be broken. And inevitably. And it may take eight months, but I would get so intoxicated, and I would feel so much shame the next day that it just wasn’t worth it. And then I just really thought, what is. There is no difference between me and the woman who leaves the bar and drives and hits and kills someone just because I, you know, it’s. It’s like this almost. It couldn’t ever happen to me. And I just got to the point where I feel. I really felt like I was the same as the woman under the bridge with the paper bag. Yeah, I just quit before she did. And I was so lucky.
Amy Stone [00:10:56]:
One of the things. And again, not an expert and not a substance counselor, but one of the things about the rock bottom thing that I find as an observer curious and confusing is that if you describe it to people as a line that people will cross, There are people who live in the state of rock bottom or who their lives are in a way that, you know, they have a lot of societal judgment. So let’s take the stereotypical case of the person who has lost or never been able to gain everything. They have no home, they’re living on the street. They are in a cycle of substance use. You know, they’ve lost all those things. They continue at that state. And so it’s not. To me, it’s confusing because if we present it like, hey, there’s a point where you’ll flip this switch and make the choice, because there is no other way. I think there’s evidence that there are people who don’t. And so, like you’re saying, it’s like, if you’re waiting for crossing that line, it’s not a guarantee that when you hit that, that you’ll come back. You could stay in that point. And so I think that’s a helpful reflection. And I think the other thing that as an observer that I’m hearing you say is really what you were doing is defining your own bottom. This is, as far as I Correct.
Lesley Jones [00:12:18]:
Yes, 100%. And I think it’s not really about how, again, the societal standards of what an alcoholic is or what a problem drinker is. It’s not really about that. It’s about how you think about your drinking. So if it were. We didn’t drink during the week, like I mentioned, we didn’t keep alcohol in the house because it was a source of. It was an issue. And if.
Amy Stone [00:12:43]:
And when you say it was an issue, this means that the people in your life, you. You were talking to them about it like it was a. Something that was causing marital disagreements. No, no. Or just. Just inside your own head.
Lesley Jones [00:12:55]:
It was, it was almost just like this unspoken thing like we just don’t drink during the week. We just don’t drink during the week.
Amy Stone [00:13:01]:
Okay?
Lesley Jones [00:13:01]:
It’s just something we don’t do. And so I knew we don’t drink during the week and it would be Monday and I would already start thinking about Friday at 5 o’ clock because I knew that was a socially acceptable time to start drinking. Even if I wasn’t getting intoxicated, the time and energy I spent thinking about drinking was, it was unbelievable. No one would know it. I mean I was still doing my day to day life. I still optically looked like I had everything together. And I’m telling you, I would think about drinking so much what I was going to drink, when I was going to drink. When’s the next. Can I manipulate circumstances this weekend about being able to drink more to go to a party instead of just staying here for dinner or whatever. And that type of thinking is really dangerous.
Amy Stone [00:13:51]:
And that’s another thing that has come into the discussion, the public discussion space in the last 24 months. So with Ozempic and all of the GLP diet drugs, one of the things they’re talking about, about is the food noise, which is very similar to what you’re talking about. This mental effort of like, when am I going to do this, what’s going to happen, so on and so forth. And what’s interesting to me, again, not an expert, not a doctor, didn’t go to medical school, but one of the things that’s super interesting to me about that there’s somebody in my family who took it and they immediately said I don’t. It’s the most amazing thing. I’m not worrying about this, not thinking and not plotting about it. And so as an observer and one of the things that’s so interesting to me is how it was completely disregarded by the medical profession until very recently. And now all of a sudden people are like, oh yeah, this is a thing that we should take seriously. And I think it rolls over into everything else. It’s like, you know when you know there’s this invisible weight that you were carrying that work of thinking about it and so on, no one can see it, no one knows it’s there but you. That doesn’t mean it’s not real.
Lesley Jones [00:15:02]:
Totally.
Amy Stone [00:15:04]:
And the other thing that you mentioned that I think is really helpful, which most people I think have experienced is the way we diagnose things and I’m not a doctor in modern time is like, there’s a book and a chart. It’s like, these are the five symptoms. And you only have this if you can check all these boxes. Right. And I think that most of us have been in a situation where we’re like, okay, I don’t have all these boxes, but I feel like crap. What are we going to do? Right. And that’s kind of what you’re saying is like, I couldn’t. I didn’t check all of the boxes in the quiz, in the magazine or the, you know, the thing. And so in a way, were you negotiating with yourself through this? Like, I don’t know that I love this, but I clearly don’t fit this. I don’t. I don’t.
Lesley Jones [00:15:49]:
Yes, absolutely. I think the thing that really pushed me over, I mean, because it is gray, There is no. This isn’t a black and white thing. You can’t just check a bunch of boxes, say, I’m an alcoholic, and then get sober. That’s just not how it works. And getting sober is not easy. If it were easy, everybody would do it. Yeah. So I think, you know, I really. You mentioned earlier about hitting rock bottom and that people, even though they hit a perceived rock bottom, they still continue to drink. And I really think this is what. This is what really convinced me to stop was I think the more you lose, the more down the scale you go with your drinking, the harder it is to crawl your way back. So I almost equate it. I’ve thought a lot about this. My mom had breast cancer, and it was stage zero, so she still had to get a mastectomy, but it was easily treatable. She didn’t have to have chemo, and she didn’t have to have radiation. I really think about that with drinking. I think I quit drinking at maybe a stage one of a scale. Of course. I’m sorry. That’s my.
Amy Stone [00:16:54]:
That’s okay. Hello, doggy. I think everybody who’s listening and watching knows that we are real people. So Lesley’s dog, for people who are listening, Lesley’s dog just walked in and made an appearance.
Lesley Jones [00:17:07]:
He did. That’s Lucas.
Amy Stone [00:17:09]:
Hello, Lucas.
Lesley Jones [00:17:10]:
He’s a little papillon, but yeah. So I think he’s very protective of me. So he’s always following me around. But, yeah. So I think, you know, if you. If I would say I quit more at, like, a stage one. I hadn’t lost anything. Yeah. And so I didn’t have all this shame and I didn’t have to rebuild a life. So I think the farther down the scale the farther, I guess you would say, the later stage in your drinking that you go, I think the harder it is to quit, which is why I think people that you look at, you’re like, you’ve lost everything.
Amy Stone [00:17:45]:
Yeah.
Lesley Jones [00:17:46]:
Why are you still drinking?
Amy Stone [00:17:48]:
So, yeah, that is, I will say this like, so, you know, habit change and motivation and overeating and substance use. Those are all in, like, those are all in a lot of the books like that I read about, you know, self development and all of these things. So, like, they frequently use some of these things as case studies and examples. And I’m not a person who researches these things. This is not my job. But I have read. Read a bazillion books about these things over the years for a variety of reasons. And one of the things that comes up in these books, right, is the question of why. And people research these things. Not me. Why do people. Not specific people, but people as a group, like human beings. Why do we sometimes do things that we know are not great for us? If there’s somebody on the planet who doesn’t know that smoking cigarettes is not healthy, Right. It’s not a health food. Right. Doritos are not a health food. You know, alcohol is not a health food. French fries, Right. I think we all know that. Eating fried foods, all of these things. And these are theories, right. I’m not presenting these as facts, but one of the questions is, you know, why. Why do we. Why do we do it at all? Like, why do we do it? And one of the theories that gets bounced around, and I’m not presenting this as a fact, but just a discussion topic is, is that the. The threat of the damage is not acute enough for us to take seriously. So it’s like, someday I might get heart disease, but today I’m 16. And so it doesn’t feel like it’s a real threat yet. And that’s. So to put in perspective, that’s one of the things that they use is like, when you get the diagnosis, like, you’ve got people who will smoke their whole life, try quitting, you know, a million times and not be able to do it. But then the second they get the diagnosis and it becomes real and they quit with no problem. And very sadly in that situation, it’s often too late to make. To be able to walk it back.
Lesley Jones [00:19:51]:
Yeah, that’s such a. That’s actually how I got sober. So can I tell a little anecdote story?
Amy Stone [00:19:58]:
Go for it.
Lesley Jones [00:19:59]:
So. So I had it. So it was January 5th. I decided to do this New Year’s resolution. I thought I was never going to drink again, but I wasn’t totally sure. And I did. 30 days sober. I was getting ready to go on a family vacation with a bunch of extended family, and there was going to be some heavy drinking there. I knew I didn’t want to drink. I didn’t know how not to drink. So I had one friend who was sober. This was before people, really. I mean, this was, you know, 11 years ago. It wasn’t. It wasn’t. I think we talk a lot more about sober, so we’re curious. Sober being the new black kind of thing now. Eleven years ago, it wasn’t cool, right? It really wasn’t. I knew one person in my early 30s that was sober.
Amy Stone [00:20:43]:
Yeah.
Lesley Jones [00:20:44]:
And I called her and I said, I think I need. She had been sober for a while. I said, I think I really need to not ever drink again. And she said, I’m going to come over. There’s a meeting. It’s a women’s meeting. It was a Friday. I was flying out to Florida on Saturday. She said, I’m going to come watch your kids. You need to go to it. And it was a new meeting. And I walked in, and there I was, so scared. I was like, who are these people gonna be? Are they gonna be, you know, just a total train wreck? Are they gonna be, like, me? Are they? And I walked in. It was all women. They were all just beautiful and gracious. And I saw a teacher in our community. Yeah. Yeah, okay.
Amy Stone [00:21:24]:
Somebody you knew.
Lesley Jones [00:21:25]:
I said, and she’s beautiful. She has children. She’s has it together. You would never know. And she came up to me and she gave me a big hug, and she was like, oh, my gosh. I didn’t know you were part of this. And I said, well, I’m not. I don’t know if I’m in the right place. And she. I told her a little bit about my story, that I had toyed with this and how I thought about drinking and all of that and how it took over so much of my mind. And she said, you’re absolutely in the right place. That’s exactly what got me here. She had been sober for 10 years, and she said, it’s not yet. You haven’t lost it yet. And that just stuck. Stuck with me. And it’s. She ended up being my sponsor. I still talked to her. We lived overseas. She came and visited me over there. I mean, she. She really changed. It was a guy. I’m very spiritual. And I think that she was in the fact that she was in the room that day. She was supposed to be teaching, but for some reason it was. She. It was Valentine’s Day and she got that day off. And it just, it changed everything for me. That word, not yet. Because that’s why I don’t drink today. It’s why I didn’t drink yesterday, and that’s why I’m not going to drink tomorrow. Because I know that I will lose if I drink. I will lose.
Amy Stone [00:22:43]:
So there’s a couple things that you touched on there that I think are, are helpful, right? So. And one of the things, so the, the whole culture around sobriety and, and also often mental health type things is that it’s. There’s value. There’s like hidden society, like value judgments that are placed on the group of people who are, or historically they’ve been making these decisions. And I like to borrow from other places where we mysteriously have made the decision to not place that value judgment on the group. So like in success coaching, right? It’s super important. It’s one of the best practices, right? If you want to be a good runner, go find a group of runners to support you, right? And we recommend that, right? You want to be a businessman, go to mba, go to business school, you know, find your group of people. But when we look at people who are trying to just this, you know, who are, you know, looking for a group and the group support within sobriety, people have very strong opinions about the individual groups.
Lesley Jones [00:23:49]:
But thank you.
Amy Stone [00:23:50]:
I like this one and I hate that one. And that’s like just a different conversation, right? I don’t have any, I don’t have a dog in that fight. But I just want to offer that like cross framing that it’s like the value of community when you’re trying to behave, change your behavior in any way, like you want to become a vegetarian or you want to just eat more broccoli, or you are looking for a job or you want to start a business, that group thing, there’s a huge amount of anecdotal evidence that that is very helpful in making the decision. And so. But you talk very openly about the fear and the pressure of going to that first thing. What are people gonna think? And that’s the reason I wanted to borrow from that other group description to like sort of offer people a reframe of like just think about it as, you know, any of the things. Because I think people have that all the time. I’ve talked to people about that with Al Anon, I’ve talked To people about that, you know, family members who are doing. It’s like, we’re very concerned. And truthfully, I don’t want to sugarcoat it, There are, even though we talk about sober, curious, gray drinking, black and white, all of these things, there can be with all of these situations, real societal implications of people who want to judge you for anything.
Lesley Jones [00:25:00]:
Oh, for sure, yeah.
Amy Stone [00:25:01]:
People, yeah, yeah. People can be jerks. So, you know, that’s just not all people, but some people. Okay, so, so you, you do a 30 day thing.
Lesley Jones [00:25:11]:
You.
Amy Stone [00:25:11]:
I want to talk about, you said something about you didn’t know how not to drink, right. And I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna hammer that home. But one of the things that I’ve heard people talk about is, and this is where the question is gonna go, is that they really, they’re not sure what to do in certain situations. Right. In their life. Right. They just don’t know. So, like, if you, when you go now to like a barbecue or you go to like a dinner party or whatever, give us an example of something and the question is, like, what do you do? What is a beverage today? That, when you go to like a barbecue, what are you gonna do? What are you going to drink in a social situation?
Lesley Jones [00:25:49]:
I mean, I drink a lot of Diet Coke, to be honest.
Amy Stone [00:25:51]:
There you go. Diet Coke.
Lesley Jones [00:25:52]:
All right, very good. My kids get on me because they’re like, mom, why do you drink so much Diet Coke? I’m like, well, it’s better than drinking other things. So everybody’s got to have their vice. And I do drink a lot of sparkling water.
Amy Stone [00:26:03]:
And sparkling water. So then, yeah, so that’s. And I just wanted to throw that out there as like for, you know, because it’s like sometimes when we, when we don’t know what to do, right. It’s like, it’s very helpful that somebody’s like, oh, this is when you lace up your, your shoes, right? This is like for sure.
Lesley Jones [00:26:18]:
And I, and I will caveat that with like the first year of sobriety was not, was not easy. So I just really did avoid certain situations that I felt like I wasn’t going to be totally comfortable not drinking. Especially situations where there was heavy drinking, I just would go for 10 minutes or I just wouldn’t go altogether, which, which did change really our social life quite a bit. So, you know, there were some repercussions to that. You know, now after that first year, I really haven’t, I don’t think about drinking really at all anymore. I don’t it just doesn’t cross my mind. It’s just who I am. I don’t. I just don’t drink. But yeah, that, that first year, I mean, it’s not like a switch flips and it’s like, oh, I’m just gonna drink Diet Coke. You know, it’s definitely hard, especially that first year of sobriety.
Amy Stone [00:27:09]:
So let’s talk about how your life has changed. So you make this decision January 5th, about a month later, Valentine’s Day, you make the commitment to yourself. That is a forever decision. And now, 11 years later, it’s stuck. So congratulations to that.
Lesley Jones [00:27:28]:
Well, thank you.
Amy Stone [00:27:30]:
Any habit of any kind to make that switch, but this is one that has a lot of research that people say it’s really, really tough. Let’s talk about how your life has change since then.
Lesley Jones [00:27:43]:
I mean, gosh, I don’t even know where to start. My life, maybe from the outside looking in, is still pretty much the same for, you know, optically, other than our social circles a little bit different, but just inside the walls of our house and just myself in general, I mean, it’s. It’s really night and day. I’m so much more at peace and calm. I used to be really trying to control everything. I mean, I’ve always been kind of a type A overachiever type. I. I drank because of the anxiety. That’s why I started in seventh grade. I mean, I remember, I literally remember the first time I got drunk and I was like, oh my God, this is the best thing ever. Because all that tension in your bones just goes away and you can just sink in and just. It’s. You’re just so relaxed and for someone that’s wound so tight, it’s. It was literally like life changing finding alcohol. And that’s why I continued to drink until, you know, I got sober. It’s why I loved drinking so much. It’s why when it was Monday, I would think about it all week. Because you’re at home with three little kids and, you know, all you want is just to relax for a second. And the best way for me to do that, the only way at the time that I knew to do that was to drink Friday at 5 o’. Clock. So that is huge. I’m. I’m just not that way anymore. I’m just not high strung like that. I’m just, I’m pretty. I mean, I still, I’m Italian, so I can still fly off the handle, but. But for the most part, you know, I think my temperament is just much More even I know how to handle life a little bit better. I remember again, just anecdotally, this is. This sticks out in my head because I think I’d been sober for like 90 days or something. And I remember it was early in the morning and, you know, I had the two little kids and one of them didn’t feel well, and I was. I was all dressed. I think I was still working part time. I was like dressed, ready to go to work, and she didn’t feel well. She was sitting on my lap and she just vomited all over me.
Amy Stone [00:29:48]:
It’s like a classic parent moment, I just gotta say. It’s like, you’re just like. You’re like. This was not in the sales brochure.
Lesley Jones [00:29:56]:
No, no, exactly. Just all over, you know, And I was so. I just remember being so calm and just picking her up and taking her, putting her in the shower, then just, you know, undress, changing my clothes and handling it so calmly. And I’ll never forget that because it was such a before and after moment for me. Like, had I been drinking and just in that drinking mindset, I would have been so irritated and just not have handled it like that. I would have. It just would have. It would have ruined my day. I was so much more irritable just generally. So that. That just always sticks out in my mind, you know, that’s such a good question. Like, how did your life change? And just Even in those 90 days, I feel like I just was already so much more able to handle things that came at me that weren’t planned.
Amy Stone [00:30:49]:
So as part of this, have you. Is it. Is it just the absence of consuming alcohol, or have you also built in and learned and applied anxiety reduction management tools as sort of a side effect of this change?
Lesley Jones [00:31:10]:
Well, ironically, the anxiety subsides once the drinking’s out of your life.
Amy Stone [00:31:15]:
Okay, so it’s a. It is. It’s like a. It’s a. It’s related. Okay. Yes.
Lesley Jones [00:31:20]:
I mean, I would be so. So if I got intoxicated or drank too much, you know, like to the point where I was feeling. Really feeling it. And I’m not talking like blackout, but even just, you know, you’re intoxicated, you’re going to have. Be a little hungover the next day or very hungover. My anxiety was through the roof. And I’m telling you, all I could think about was drinking. All I would want to do was drink. I wouldn’t. I was still at the point, you know, I talked about the stages of alcoholism earlier, and I Think I was still at the point where I could, like, white knuckle it and not drink. I think that there’s a point if you’re later in the disease of alcoholism, you cannot, like, you lose the choice to not drink. I really, truly believe you lose the choice. And I still sort of had the choice and I was still able to white knuckle it and not drink and then wait until that anxiety. But all I could think of is, all I want to do is drink. All I want to do is drink.
Amy Stone [00:32:14]:
So do you know who Rich Roll is?
Lesley Jones [00:32:17]:
I don’t.
Amy Stone [00:32:18]:
Okay, so he’s an ultra runner and a vegetarian. And he, he has a podcast and he’s written some books. I think now they might call him a motivational speaker. Anyway, he. So years and years ago, I read his book and his story about the first. He was older than you in this story, if I remember it correctly. I think he was in high school or maybe college, like maybe going to. Maybe he went on a college trip kind of thing. And for the first time in his life, he had alcohol. And he describes it almost exactly the way you do that. It was a life changing experience because he was able to relax for the first time. And so, you know, I do. I think it’s curious because anxiety is one of the things we’re talking about more in 2025, 2026 than we ever have before. And that’s why I asked the question of like, you know, the anxiety techniques. I think it’s really interesting because it’s like, there’s always the question, it’s like, why, you know, I ask people why they make the decisions, right? So it’s like, what is the, what is the thing behind the decision going on that’s driving it? Like, what makes alcohol the best choice? Because anxiety feels terrible.
Lesley Jones [00:33:29]:
It does. It’s. It’s the worst. It really is.
Amy Stone [00:33:32]:
Anxiety feels really, really bad. And so through that, and you know, as a person, you know, when I’m looking at that, like when I’m meeting other people, I try and always have that, like, sort of perception. I don’t know what’s going on in somebody’s life and what the story is. I always assume people are trying to make the best decision they can. And that puts that in that lens. It’s like when you are experiencing this horrible anxiety and the only tool you have and the only tool, you know, works is, you know, wine o’. Clock, there’s compassion there, there’s compassion there because somebody has to present to you a different or you have to discover a different option in order to make the different choice.
Lesley Jones [00:34:09]:
Yeah, absolutely.
Amy Stone [00:34:10]:
Yes. So. And for you, one of the things that you mentioned is that you didn’t hit rock bottom, but you were missing things in your life, and that was the thing that drove the decision that you were making. Talk a little bit more about that internal pressure that you were feeling, because I think that. Because it’s invisible, because people were watching you from the outside. You still had a job, you had a house, you had a relationship. You checked all the boxes. Talk a little bit more about that invisible structure struggle that you felt like you were missing things already.
Lesley Jones [00:34:45]:
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s. It’s really shame. It’s just. That’s just what it is, is shame. You know, you have this thing that you think about way too much. No one knows about it, because no one can be in your brain and hear your thoughts. You’re maybe drinking mostly, like all of your friends, so it’s not like you’re standing out, but. But they’re probably not thinking about alcohol the way that you’re thinking about it. And I. I did know. And I. And I did recognize this. You know, I was. I was very aware, even in high school, that I was drinking because of my anxiety.
Amy Stone [00:35:26]:
So. You were aware?
Lesley Jones [00:35:28]:
Oh, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, I. So I don’t say this as a way to brag. I just say it to. To put context to the story. So in 1998, I won the. With my sister. We won the state. Ohio state doubles title in tennis. Or in tennis. Sorry. In tennis. And there could have been pickleball. Yeah, no, it could have been. Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:35:55]:
Speed skating.
Lesley Jones [00:35:56]:
Yes. No, thank you.
Amy Stone [00:35:58]:
Diving.
Lesley Jones [00:35:59]:
And there was a. So they were doing a new thing where they put. There’s like a flag with our name. Not a flag, but a banner. And in the gym with our name. The whole community was invited because I think we were the first team to have one state in the history of.
Amy Stone [00:36:14]:
No, it’s a big deal. Yeah, it’s a big deal.
Lesley Jones [00:36:16]:
Right? And the thought of that. So I was a senior in high school. The thought of that was so. It was crippling to me. And so leading up to that, this is not my proudest moment, but this will tell you my relationship with alcohol. Leading up to that, I was like, there is no. And people were not talking about anxiety back then. So I kept all of that inside. My parents had no idea. They feel guilty now, and I’m like, you couldn’t have known I was so good at Pretending I was so good at hiding everything and just appearing to everybody like I had it all together and I was perfect. And, you know, I had all the things, and I started. I was like, I can’t. I can’t be down there. Our gym is a pit. So it’s, like, below everybody, and then there’s all these. It’s. It’s a circle. I’m like, I’m gonna be down there. I have to talk. I. Everybody’s gonna be looking at me. I can’t do this. Can I be sick? How can I do this? I started taking. So my dad had a refrigerator out in our garage, and he drank Bud Light ice. I don’t even know. Do they still make that?
Amy Stone [00:37:23]:
I assume they do. I assume they do. I mean, so gross. These beers, like, so, like, frat parties when I was in College in the 90s had natural light, and I thought that that didn’t exist anymore. And then in my 30s, I went to my stepson frat party at my stepson’s house, and I was like, oh, my God. Natural light. They still have that. And so it’s like, I don’t think these brands ever die. Yeah, I just read.
Lesley Jones [00:37:47]:
Yeah, I just remember the ice was extra alcohol. Oh, okay. I was like. It was like Bud Light ice, so it was extra concentrated. And so I went and I started, like, the two weeks leading up to it, I would just slowly, like, take them and hide them in my room. So I had several Bud Light ices ready to go for that day. This is, like, really embarrassing, but it’s just the reality of it. And I shoved. I mean, they were. They were piss warm because, you know, they’d been in there and I was getting ready in my room. I mean, of course, I was, you know, just in a private room. And I just chugged them. I chugged them. And I knew, even at that age, I knew exactly how much to drink to get the feeling that I needed to feel. To be able to have no one know, but to be able to present myself in front of everybody.
Amy Stone [00:38:35]:
Well, and they call it liquid courage, which, you know, like.
Lesley Jones [00:38:38]:
Exactly.
Amy Stone [00:38:39]:
It’s socially acceptable. And you can.
Lesley Jones [00:38:41]:
I don’t.
Amy Stone [00:38:41]:
God, I don’t know if they do this anymore, but in old movies, you’ll see people, like, suggest it to people, oh, you’re going to go make this presentation. Have. I mean, things like that. So that is really interesting. I just. I’m sure that so. And I appreciate you sharing that story vulnerably and humbly and all of those things. Because I think it’s helpful for people to see it. There’s a well known book, the Naked Truth. I’m spacing on the name. And she tells a story of that. Also about drinking before she went on stage to make a business presentation. And, and, and similarly, you know, to, to you, she’s like, you know, this may shock you, but I think that part of it that’s so. That is equally. It’s like we can never know what other people are doing because we’re not them. One of the times I made that revelation was actually like teaching one of my kids how to drive. And I looked around and I was like, all of these people could be new drivers around me. You just never know who knows around you?
Lesley Jones [00:39:42]:
So true.
Amy Stone [00:39:43]:
Should never make the assumption that anybody around me has any idea what they’re doing in this.
Lesley Jones [00:39:47]:
I can guarantee you there’s not one person at that presentation or whatever it was that knew that I had just chugged four Bud Light ices.
Amy Stone [00:39:56]:
That’s a lot. That’s a lot of Bud Light. That’s a lot of Bud Light.
Lesley Jones [00:39:59]:
Maybe it wasn’t for. It could have been three. It was just enough, you know.
Amy Stone [00:40:03]:
Yes. And you had a, you had a plan. All right, so in a second, we’re going to do the final fun questions. You were talking about your personal story here, but we’re going to segue just directly that’s, you know, into this. We’re gonna do the final fun question, the second. Tell people about what you do as a profession, as your career, as your business now and a little bit about that.
Lesley Jones [00:40:22]:
Yeah. So, you know, you mentioned the groups earlier and how support can help people that are struggling with different things. And I just am such a strong believer in that. And I think that we’re here to connect and I think that, you know, just like we’re doing today, to share our stories. Every January 5, I share a little something about my sobriety just because every time I do it, I get at least two people who read it and PM and DM me and just say, hey, I’ve. I’ve been struggling and, you know, can you help me? Or what do you think about this? Or what do you think about that? And so I continue to share it because I do think that that’s, you know, people. It’s just knowing that you’re not alone. Yeah. And so I started a company that I, that I launched in 2022. It’s called traveling Pendants. And the whole basis of it is connection and sharing our stories. So they are pendants, and they say, strength for the journey on them. They’re all handmade, fine, precious metal. And they have. Right now, they have QR codes on the back. So they’re etched on the back. You. The whole idea is you scan the code, and then it’s taken to. You take. You’re taken to my website, where it’s like sort of a story hub, and you share your story of strength. Some people write a sentence. Some people write a whole novel. Some people upload videos and pictures. And then you wear your pendant as a source of strength. And when you’re moved by someone in your life who needs strength, you pass it on to them, and they scan, and then they add their story. And then you can continue to track it as it travels around and read all the stories it collects.
Amy Stone [00:42:03]:
Wow. All right, so Traveling Pendants is the company, and the website for anybody who’s listening is travelingpendants.com you. This is a business and a company that you formed. You have a special offer for the audience, which is a 20% off discount for anything@travelingpendants.com the information for that is that you use the code imperfect on the website to get that 20% discount for everybody who’s listening and watching. The information on that is in the show notes or the video description. But there’s the easiest way always to collect this information about the discounts from and special offers from guests is to be a subscriber to the imperfect adulting email list, because then it arrives in your inbox. You don’t have to fumble for a pen or try and remember from the middle of your run or wherever you are, and you can just click on it. So that’s a very generous offer, and it’s a really innovative concept and idea. It reminds me of that book from a long time ago, the Traveling Pants.
Lesley Jones [00:43:00]:
Yes, I get that a lot.
Amy Stone [00:43:02]:
The Sisters. Okay. All right. As you were telling the story, I was like, that book was so good. Traveling Pants. All right, so travelingpendants.com thank you very much for that very generous offer. Lesley, are you ready to wrap this up with the final fun questions?
Lesley Jones [00:43:18]:
I hope so.
Amy Stone [00:43:19]:
People get stressed about this, but don’t.
Lesley Jones [00:43:21]:
Okay.
Amy Stone [00:43:23]:
These are supposed to be rapid fire and just for fun. Don’t put any stress. Okay. So do you have a set morning routine? And if so, do you want to share what it is?
Lesley Jones [00:43:33]:
I do. And it’s kind of embarrassing that I still wake my children up every morning for school, and they are high schoolers.
Amy Stone [00:43:41]:
That’s fine. That’s fine. I’m sure they appreciate it. One of these days they’ll have to do it on their own and hopefully they’ll say thank you to you for doing it all the time for them. All right, next one. Do you read or listen to books? And if so, do you have a recommendation of a recent book that you have read or listened to that you really liked?
Lesley Jones [00:43:59]:
That’s a good question. Yeah, I listen to a lot of podcasts, actually. I love. I’m not so much a reader, so I do listen to a lot of podcasts. Like a lot of self help type stuff. I’m trying to think the last. The name of the last book I read, I actually don’t remember. Isn’t that terrible?
Amy Stone [00:44:17]:
It’s not. I’m like that too. I asked this question for people, which is super funny because if anybody ever at any time asks me what I’m reading, I’m like, it’s about this and has this in it. I never know. I rarely know the title or the author unless it’s somebody that I’ve read for. Like, yeah, that’s like, that’s.
Lesley Jones [00:44:32]:
I will say, like, I guess two books ago I did listen to. Didn’t read, but listen to what Made Maddie Run. And I finished it and probably literally a day. It is unbelievable for, okay, teenagers and teenage girls that it’s a phenomenal book.
Amy Stone [00:44:50]:
All right. What Made Maddie Run? All right, that’s. I love that. All right. Very. That’s good. Because parents of teenagers need more support because, like, when you’re going through the parenting journey, it’s like all the support is like, you know, under age 6 or 8 and then you get to be a teenage parent. You’re like, where are my people? Because this is like nailing jello to a tree. I need some help, you know?
Lesley Jones [00:45:09]:
Yes. With a 16 and a 15 year old and a 12 year old. We’re in the thick of it. So I.
Amy Stone [00:45:14]:
You are. Oh, my goodness. Yes, you are. Okay, so thinking about you when you were a teenager, third and final question. Do you remember if you had posters hanging up in your room? And if so, do you remember what one of them might have been?
Lesley Jones [00:45:28]:
Oh, my gosh. That’s a good question. Okay. I think I actually did have one poster. It wasn’t a boy band. I was obsessed with the Phantom of the Opera. Oh, nice. It was like a poster. I think my parents had taken us to New York to see the Phantom of the Opera and it was a poster from the show, I think.
Amy Stone [00:45:45]:
Yeah. No, with the mask.
Lesley Jones [00:45:47]:
Yes. That’s exactly right. Yeah.
Amy Stone [00:45:49]:
Yes. That’s a fantastic, fantastic memory. That’s it. Lesley Jones, thank you so much for being a wonderful guest today on the show.
Lesley Jones [00:45:56]:
Well, thanks so much for having me.